[FIXED v1.11] Not able to cancel RTB Bingo fuel

[KewDok]

In the attached save, Watchman 3, just south of Crete is on his way to a certain death. The enemy group moved in between his patrol pattern and his base, the carrier, and he decided to return at Bingo Fuel from his mission.
I am not able to guide him around as he changes back to "RTB (Bingo Fuel) immediately and ignores my waypoints.
I know I was stupid not to adjust my patrols, but it would be nice to be allowed to do something about this behaviour. He should have fuel to move around[:)]
Maybe it should be possible to Unassing from RTB Bingo Fuel?

I am on B546

Absolutely love the progress that has happened in the game since I played last time about 4 months ago. [&o]

[KewDok]

Btw, I am sorry if this was not the correct forum to post this. I considered it a tech issue, or bug. But it might be a feature request?

KriB out...

[Sardaukar]

It's on right subforum,IMHO

[Dimitris]

Thanks! Logged.

[Dimitris]

The "U" (unassign) key cancels the RTB status.

[nocacounsel]

From my own experience as well as what others report (e.g. fb.asp?m=3716636 or fb.asp?m=3715143 ), Unassigning (U) the aircraft on RTB for Bingo Fuel only cancels the command for a moment; once a course is set for the aircraft it reverts to RTB-Bingo Fuel again almost immediately [with Build 573].

Has this been corrected in 1.06 such that we can fully override the RTB for Bingo fuel if we so desire?

Thanks!

[Blas de Lezo]

Hi!, sorry to say it but you have put yourself in a loose-losse situation....

Your aircraft is bingo... guys! In real life that's not a minor issue... you don't have gas to go back to your home base, in peacetime you will still have your alternate, but not in the game... so, now you want to cancel RTB to set a new heading to what purpose exactly?, you don't have fuel to go anywhere... So it's either trying to sneak through the enemy or to dicht in the water farther away from home....

I can't check it right now, and I don't remember if the sim checks for alternate landing places when in Bingo status... in any case if you think that a more suitable airfield is available to avoid the enemy, just change the homebase of the aircraft... the new fuel calculations will start to reach the new homebase....

[comsubpac]

sometimes you dont want your aircrafts to return though. if you know they are going to be killed after attacking the target why bother with fuel?

[Seminole]

Hi!, sorry to say it but you have put yourself in a loose-losse situation....

No, I've put myself in a situation the designer/programmer hasn't accounted for yet. That's a little different.

Your aircraft is bingo... guys! In real life that's not a minor issue... you don't have gas to go back to your home base, in peacetime you will still have your alternate, but not in the game... so, now you want to cancel RTB to set a new heading to what purpose exactly?, you don't have fuel to go anywhere... So it's either trying to sneak through the enemy or to dicht in the water farther away from home....

I also can't change the altitude. That is a problem. I want to stay down on the deck and out of radar, but because of the 'autopilot' RTB I'm flying at 40,000 feet and enemy AEW vectored a fighter unseen to my location. The player should be able to at least override altitude on RTB because it is essential to survivability.

I can't check it right now, and I don't remember if the sim checks for alternate landing places when in Bingo status... in any case if you think that a more suitable airfield is available to avoid the enemy, just change the homebase of the aircraft... the new fuel calculations will start to reach the new homebase....

I have a airborne tanker that is closer than the alternate base. Is it possible to override the RTB calculation the AI is making and vector my aircraft to the tanker instead? I'm new to the game, so I'm not familiar with which ways you can (and which way(s) are best) handle aerial refueling.

These RTB conditions can be gamed as well. Because the AI will go to afterburner chasing bandits you can run away, cause them to burn up their fuel, and then lay an ambush on their RTB flight path. They'll be sitting ducks...

[mikmykWS]

Guys if possible can we table this until after release to see where we stand? Many fixes were made so this may not even be an issue.

We're listening, concerned and plan to be responsive but given the complexity of the issue need to see what the present state of it actually is. Release is very close.

Mike

[nocacounsel]

Very happy to table this conversation, Mike, with my/our thanks for all the days & hours you Devs do to improve the game and its functionality. I hesitated in even posting to this thread, but given Sunburn wrote with such certainly & the change log is largely released I thought I'd ask. I imagine 1.06 will fix much and anxiously await its arrival.

To some smaller points:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

Hi!, sorry to say it but you have put yourself in a loose-losse situation....

No, I've put myself in a situation the designer/programmer hasn't accounted for yet. That's a little different.

And I've literally had aircraft 5 nm away from their ordinance launch point only to be turned back for Bingo Fuel without any recourse because the Bingo Fuel cannot currently be overridden.

I have a airborne tanker that is closer than the alternate base. Is it possible to override the RTB calculation the AI is making and vector my aircraft to the tanker instead? I'm new to the game, so I'm not familiar with which ways you can (and which way(s) are best) handle aerial refueling.

On this and with Build 573, the aircraft will consider the tanker its home base for purposes of fuel, Seminole, IF that aircraft's ROE for Refueling is set to YES.


This forum is a great resource for discussion (though some of it changes as the bugs are quashed and enhancements released). For Aerial Refueling, the best doctrines beyond what is mentioned in the manual & addendums are summed up in these conversations:

-In general, refueling is performed as specified here: fb.asp?m=3742480

-A personal choice for sure, but some players prefer to keep the global Refueling ROE set to NO and then individually change a particular unit/aircraft's ROE (CTRL+F9) to YES. This way only the unit/aircraft you want to receive fuel will seek it (e.g. fb.asp?m=3722927 )

-For tankers, the best policy is to have three+ reference points in a Support mission as mentioned here: http://http://www.matrixgames.com/forum ... ?m=3750384

-If you want the refueling aircraft to stop refueling before it tops off, press U/Unassign on the tanker as specified here: fb.asp?m=3723528 & fb.asp?m=3736323

-If you don't want your allies to sip your fuel (or "mug" your tankers), be sure to change the posture setting in the editor as mentioned here (which might have consequences): fb.asp?m=3720744 & fb.asp?m=3673914

[mikmykWS]

Great thanks. Release is imminent.

Mike

[thewood1]

imminent?...as in refresh every 5 minutes or imminent, as in keep checking every morning?

[mikmykWS]

Tomorrow if everything goes well.

Thanks!

Mike

[Major SNAFU_M]

ORIGINAL: comsubpac

sometimes you dont want your aircrafts to return though. if you know they are going to be killed after attacking the target why bother with fuel?

On behalf of all combat pilots, both real and virtual, world wide: "Ouch!" [:D]

[Felcas]

I would like to clarify about possible use of overide RTB.

My Helo is 36nm from my target (ATM that it starts RTB), it is equiped with penguin missile which have a 20nm range, so I just need that my helo fly just 16 or 17 nm more.
On the UNIT FUEL (right side) it says 115nm left and 86nm to base, so if my helo fly those 17nm to get into launch range it will still have fuel to get back, more preciselly it will have 12nm more to spare.
I know this is ridiculous close to crash but it is viable.

Is it realistic? No and Yes. Normally in real life as a rule a commanders should never risk loosing an asset due to loss of fuel, but there are situations that I think they would risk or even sacrifice assets to achieve an objective much more important and valuable. I judge a helo is expandable if it can damage or sink a ship that threats my main objective or the assets needed to achieve them.

Plus, in real life and considering the above situation, the helo could land on neutral or friendly territory on the last minute to keep the crew alive. It is possible to even bring fuel to recover the dried helo.

I might be wrong but make sense to me. And thats how I play.

[thewood1]

I have to admit this one has me a little perplexed also. I have a helo that reached bingo fuel. It abandons its mission or plat and heads back to base. I want it to stay aloft just a few more minutes on its original course. I unassign it. No problem. It holds where it is. I plot a course 20 nm back on its orginal plot. The helo turns to the course, but as soon as it jits the course, it immediately does a RTB. I can keep doing this ad nausea. I think as long as I don't put it on a platted course or mission, it will loiter until it runs out of gas.

My question is why, when I unassign a unit from RTB, it immediately does a RTB if I plot a new course. What is the point of unassigning it, it it does the RTB as soon as I try to do anything with it? I am just confused about what to expect on bingo fuel.

[jarraya]

This has been a hotly debated topic:
tm.asp?m=3678202&mpage=1&key=RTB&#3679669

One suggestion, and this is what I do - because most scenario authors don't put alternate fields in their scenarios - I play in the editor and when I need to stretch the legs of a flight I add an alternate field or ship somewhere close to where my planes are flying, change the home base for the planes, extend my attack and then return them to to the original airfield. I then delete the airfield or ship I added. This doesn't always work when you have long stretches of sea, but you can always plop down a ship for helicopters.

I find that in 99% of the cases I have more than enough fuel to meet up with a tanker or make it back to the original airfield with plenty of fuel (>10% in tanks). The other 1%, well, I lose the aircraft, and whilst it hurts, it may have been worth sinking that SSN that was probably going to get away because my chopper couldn't get the extra 5 mins of flying time.

In my head, war has shown that sometimes you have to make sacrifices, and that's how I justify it.

Just a suggestion.

[Braces for the bashing]

[thewood1]

I have no problem with the automated RTB. I just don't understand what the point of having "U" unassign from the RTB, only to have it immediately go back to RTB within 10-15 sec.

[jarraya]

That's the way the game is designed.