For Micheal: Possible Bug air bombing AA units

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GreyJoy
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For Micheal: Possible Bug air bombing AA units

Post by GreyJoy »

Hi Micheal,

I believe I've found, along with Obvert, a bug (or a not-wanted-behaviour) concerning AA units.

Already opened a thread in the main forum where we've discussed the matter with Alfred and others. (tm.asp?m=3717174)

I will try to describe the situation we've tested.

the "situation" arises when, in the same hex, are present two opposing stacks of LCUs and there are AA units present in both the stacks.
Both stacks have plenty of supplies and all the close-by supply sources are open.
So, there is NO supply problem.
if you try to ground-bomb the enemy's stack in the contested hex, the AA LCUs will obviously fire at the incoming enemy's bombers.
No matter if the bombers have successfully hit the troops and cause disabled/destroyed devices (visible in the combat report), at the end of the turn, in the op report, you're gonna see the "isolated with no supply" message concerning the AA units present in the stack that has been attacked by the bombers.
Note that, when you open the turn after the resolution, the units (AA LCUs included) are all in a perfect supply status.
The very same AA LCUs have suffered some disabled/destroyed devices during the turn-resolution, devices that do not seem to be related with the bombers' activity (so I assume are due to the penalty check related with the "isolated with no supply" of the op report).

So the problem seems to be that units that fire against the bombers consume ALL their embedded supplies and then are checked by the AI for the "isolated with no supplies" penalty BEFORE the "supply movement phase", thus resulting with NO supplies and so suffering the penalty you've introduced in one of the betas (tm.asp?m=3360927&mpage=1&key=isolated%2Csupply&#3361451)

I think this is not WAD, because it can easily lead to an exploitation of these very common situations (stacks facing each other with AA units), where the AA units can easily be destroyed (particularly true for the very small Japanese AA companies that only have very few devices)

My modest opinion is that that "penalty check" should be made AFTER the supply/movement phase or, alternatively, the AA LCUs should use less supplies while firing at the enemy's bombers.


This has been tested by me and Obvert on both sides (japan and allies) and always happen

I believe this would worth a look

Still thanks for all your effort and support!

GJ

Here's a save (the "thing" is happening in hex 53:30, near Patna, India)

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GreyJoy
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RE: For Micheal: Possible Bug air bombing AA units

Post by GreyJoy »

There is another related problem:

Every time that penalty check (isolated with no supply) kicks in, the AA units are set back (AUTOMATICALLY) to "do not take replacements", and I am pretty sure they were all set to "accept replacements".

This will lead into a "loop" where the AA units will get destroyed by this "combo" of supply expenditure against bombers + penalty check + "forced" do not accept replacements.

Thanks
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obvert
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RE: For Micheal: Possible Bug air bombing AA units

Post by obvert »

I will chip in to say this has occurred on my side as well. Reports of '... isolated with no supply' and then loss of devices after the turn. I haven't yet checked to see if the units revert to taking no replacements after as well. (The one below did not).

This has happened for me not only with AA units but with other artillery during/after a bombardment under the same conditions; when to armies oppose each other in the same hex and a bombardment occurs, the message '...isolated with no supply' shows up and the units are not doing well after the turn. I don't know if this is one of the factors in why I've noticed horrendous losses from my own bombardments in this game with seemingly well matched forces.

In this case this artillery unit was not set to bombard, but suffered (apparently) from counter bombardment, and also got this message. Below is an image of what it looked like after the turn.

[font="Trebuchet MS"]1st USMC Field Artillery Battalion isolated with no supply![/font]

Image
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obvert
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RE: For Micheal: Possible Bug air bombing AA units

Post by obvert »

Some new info to add. These units got the message after a DA in the hex that our two armies both share in India. I've received big disablements in these units after the battle. Still, is this message also showing that the units take extra damage because of the supply check?
[font="Trebuchet MS"]
260th Coast AA Regiment isolated with no supply!
251st Coast AA Regiment isolated with no supply!
93rd Coast AA Regiment isolated with no supply!
1st USMC AA Battalion isolated with no supply!
637th Tank Destroyer Battalion isolated with no supply!
14th Indian Division isolated with no supply!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 53,30 (near Patna)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 110186 troops, 1410 guns, 2286 vehicles, Assault Value = 3684

Defending force 115744 troops, 1182 guns, 819 vehicles, Assault Value = 3162

Allied adjusted assault: 1456

Japanese adjusted defense: 3074

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
4526 casualties reported
Squads: 5 destroyed, 272 disabled
Non Combat: 7 destroyed, 191 disabled
Engineers: 6 destroyed, 47 disabled
Guns lost 155 (24 destroyed, 131 disabled)
Vehicles lost 133 (11 destroyed, 122 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
11883 casualties reported
Squads: 250 destroyed, 798 disabled
Non Combat: 10 destroyed, 304 disabled
Engineers: 18 destroyed, 106 disabled
Guns lost 158 (20 destroyed, 138 disabled)
Vehicles lost 303 (52 destroyed, 251 disabled)

Assaulting units:
14th Indian Division
19th Indian Division
20th Indian Division
637th Tank Destroyer Battalion
50th Tank Brigade
23rd Indian Division
762nd Tank Battalion
75th Indian Brigade
7th Australian Division
22nd (East African) Brigade
255th Armoured Brigade
267th Armoured Brigade
63rd Indian Brigade
24th (Sep) Infantry Regiment
3rd Carabiniers Regiment
150th RAC Regiment
147th(Sep) Infantry Regiment
73rd Motorised Brigade
75th IAC Regiment
70th British Division
26th Indian Division
6th Medium Regiment
251st Coast AA Regiment
1st USMC AA Battalion
2/11th Field Regiment
1st Indian Light AA Regiment
260th Coast AA Regiment
1st USMC Field Artillery Battalion
2/9th Field Regiment
85th British AT Gun Regiment
93rd Coast AA Regiment
26th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment

Defending units:
55th Division
24th Ind Engineer Regiment
21st Division
48th Division
14th Tank Regiment
5th Division
22nd Ind Engineer Regiment
33rd Division
22nd Tank Regiment
1st Division
2nd Division
4th Ind Engineer Regiment
29th Ind Engineer Regiment
12th Air Defense AA Regiment
2nd Area Army
1st Hvy.Artillery Regiment
1st Art.Mortar Regiment
3rd Ind.AA Gun Co
2nd RF Gun Battalion
15th Air Defense AA Regiment
14th Army
2nd Ind.AA Gun Co
2nd Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
3rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
51st Air Defense AA Battalion
18th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
6th Air Defense AA Regiment
21st Medium Field Artillery Battalion
41st Air Defense AA Battalion
3rd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
54th Field AA Battalion
9th RF Gun Battalion
1st RF Gun Battalion
21st Army[/font]
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GreyJoy
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RE: For Micheal: Possible Bug air bombing AA units

Post by GreyJoy »

On that very same turn i had the following messages (due to air bombing, i guess)

12th Air Defense AA Regiment isolated with no supply!
15th Air Defense AA Regiment isolated with no supply!
6th Air Defense AA Regiment isolated with no supply!
2nd Ind.AA Gun Co isolated with no supply!
3rd Ind.AA Gun Co isolated with no supply!
41st Air Defense AA Battalion isolated with no supply!
51st Air Defense AA Battalion isolated with no supply!
54th Field AA Battalion isolated with no supply!


All these units suffered heavily, even if they were NEVER directly targetted by air bombings (so i guess all the devices lost are due to the "penalty" and not to the ground or air-to-ground combat).

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GreyJoy
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RE: For Micheal: Possible Bug air bombing AA units

Post by GreyJoy »

The two indipendend AA gun companies suffered the most, being so little, having nearly 90% of their devices destroyed!
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MrBlizzard
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RE: For Micheal: Possible Bug air bombing AA units

Post by MrBlizzard »

I've got a similar problem,
during an enemy Deliberate Attack in an hex owned by my troops appeared this message:

"8th Tank Regiment isolated with no supply!"

and after the end of combat the unit resulted completely trashed;
there was no problem of supplies in hex and in theater and all units had good supplies both at the start and at the end of turn

Image

Ground combat at 95,157 (near Maryborough)
Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 46396 troops, 1061 guns, 1453 vehicles, Assault Value = 1568
Defending force 47593 troops, 496 guns, 587 vehicles, Assault Value = 1478
Allied adjusted assault: 586
Japanese adjusted defense: 5679
Allied assault odds: 1 to 9

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+)

Attacker:
Japanese ground losses:
466 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 99 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 36 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 5 disabled
Guns lost 21 (1 destroyed, 20 disabled)
Vehicles lost 99 (40 destroyed, 59 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
878 casualties reported
Squads: 6 destroyed, 45 disabled
Non Combat: 20 destroyed, 37 disabled
Engineers: 3 destroyed, 46 disabled
Guns lost 35 (3 destroyed, 32 disabled)
Vehicles lost 129 (50 destroyed, 79 disabled)
Units destroyed 1

Assaulting units:
192nd Tank Battalion
2nd Marine Division
27th Infantry Division
24th (Sep) Infantry Regiment
194th Tank Battalion
627th Tank Destroyer Battalion
637th Tank Destroyer Battalion
640th Tank Destroyer Battalion
632nd Tank Destroyer Battalion
1st USMC Tank Battalion
147th(Sep) Infantry Regiment
1st Marine Division
102nd Combat Engineer Regiment
2nd USMC Tank Battalion
503rd Coast AA Regiment
165th Field Artillery Battalion
77th Coast AA Regiment
97th Field Artillery Battalion
188th Field Artillery Regiment
214th Coast AA Regiment
65th Coast AA Regiment
154th FA Bn Field Artillery Battalion
134th Field Artillery Battalion
131st Field Artillery Battalion
209th Field Artillery Battalion
30th Coast AA Regiment
147th Field Artillery Regiment
40th Field Artillery Regiment
4th Field Artillery Battalion
30th Field Artillery Regiment
148th Field Artillery Battalion

Defending units:
8th Tank Regiment
21st Division
1st Mobile Infantry Regiment
20th Division
38th Division
1st Mobile Field Artillery Regiment
7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
16th Army
2nd Mortar Battalion
3rd IJN AA Battalion

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wpae090(37).zip
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Lokasenna
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RE: For Micheal: Possible Bug air bombing AA units

Post by Lokasenna »

A little hard to say that they didn't suffer a lot of casualties in the attack (lots of vehicles listed in the combat report for casualties), but the "isolated with no supply" and then perfect supply in the coming turn is pretty telling.
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GreyJoy
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RE: For Micheal: Possible Bug air bombing AA units

Post by GreyJoy »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

A little hard to say that they didn't suffer a lot of casualties in the attack (lots of vehicles listed in the combat report for casualties), but the "isolated with no supply" and then perfect supply in the coming turn is pretty telling.


Yes, i think there must be a "routine check" for this penalty that doesn't really work.
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Yaab
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RE: For Micheal: Possible Bug air bombing AA units

Post by Yaab »

Where is michaelm anyway?
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witpqs
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RE: For Micheal: Possible Bug air bombing AA units

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Where is michaelm anyway?
He's around. I've exchanged email with him during the last week.
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GreyJoy
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RE: For Micheal: Possible Bug air bombing AA units

Post by GreyJoy »

bump
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michaelm75au
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RE: For Micheal: Possible Bug air bombing AA units

Post by michaelm75au »

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

There is another related problem:

Every time that penalty check (isolated with no supply) kicks in, the AA units are set back (AUTOMATICALLY) to "do not take replacements", and I am pretty sure they were all set to "accept replacements".

This will lead into a "loop" where the AA units will get destroyed by this "combo" of supply expenditure against bombers + penalty check + "forced" do not accept replacements.

Thanks
When it detects isolation, it changes the isolated unit replacement and upgrade options to N in order to conserve supplies.
Michael
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michaelm75au
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RE: For Micheal: Possible Bug air bombing AA units

Post by michaelm75au »

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Hi Micheal,

I believe I've found, along with Obvert, a bug (or a not-wanted-behaviour) concerning AA units.

Already opened a thread in the main forum where we've discussed the matter with Alfred and others. (tm.asp?m=3717174)

I will try to describe the situation we've tested.

the "situation" arises when, in the same hex, are present two opposing stacks of LCUs and there are AA units present in both the stacks.
Both stacks have plenty of supplies and all the close-by supply sources are open.
So, there is NO supply problem.
if you try to ground-bomb the enemy's stack in the contested hex, the AA LCUs will obviously fire at the incoming enemy's bombers.
No matter if the bombers have successfully hit the troops and cause disabled/destroyed devices (visible in the combat report), at the end of the turn, in the op report, you're gonna see the "isolated with no supply" message concerning the AA units present in the stack that has been attacked by the bombers.
Note that, when you open the turn after the resolution, the units (AA LCUs included) are all in a perfect supply status.
The very same AA LCUs have suffered some disabled/destroyed devices during the turn-resolution, devices that do not seem to be related with the bombers' activity (so I assume are due to the penalty check related with the "isolated with no supply" of the op report).

So the problem seems to be that units that fire against the bombers consume ALL their embedded supplies and then are checked by the AI for the "isolated with no supplies" penalty BEFORE the "supply movement phase", thus resulting with NO supplies and so suffering the penalty you've introduced in one of the betas (tm.asp?m=3360927&mpage=1&key=isolated%2Csupply�)

I think this is not WAD, because it can easily lead to an exploitation of these very common situations (stacks facing each other with AA units), where the AA units can easily be destroyed (particularly true for the very small Japanese AA companies that only have very few devices)

My modest opinion is that that "penalty check" should be made AFTER the supply/movement phase or, alternatively, the AA LCUs should use less supplies while firing at the enemy's bombers.


This has been tested by me and Obvert on both sides (japan and allies) and always happen

I believe this would worth a look

Still thanks for all your effort and support!

GJ

Here's a save (the "thing" is happening in hex 53:30, near Patna, India)

I have loaded and played thru this turn and only 'isolated' messages I see are a few for the Allied player. Which look real as the units have no supply at the end of the turn - they start out with really low supply.
26th Group Army isolated with no supply lost 2 device(s)!
200th Chinese Division isolated with no supply lost 3 device(s)!
96th Chinese Division isolated with no supply lost 4 device(s)!
22nd New Chinese Division isolated with no supply lost 4 device(s)!
2nd Reserve Division isolated with no supply lost 4 device(s)!
I play around some more to see if I can reproduce anything.
If a hex is isolated, I would expect all units in hex to be isolated as it does not seem to use the type of unit in determining supply path.
Michael
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michaelm75au
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RE: For Micheal: Possible Bug air bombing AA units

Post by michaelm75au »

Also I noticed that prior to the 'isolation' phase, a stack will try to distribute any excess supply between its units.
Michael
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RE: For Micheal: Possible Bug air bombing AA units

Post by michaelm75au »

ORIGINAL: MrBlizzard

I've got a similar problem,
during an enemy Deliberate Attack in an hex owned by my troops appeared this message:

"8th Tank Regiment isolated with no supply!"

and after the end of combat the unit resulted completely trashed;
there was no problem of supplies in hex and in theater and all units had good supplies both at the start and at the end of turn

I am really confused by this as I am not getting any isolated message for this unit - I am using 1123x10, but this is a save from 1123x8 which should be okay from this perspective.
The only thing I have noticed (in both this save and earlier one) is that I get the different hexe file message which is expected as I don't have the non-standard hexe files installed. This should not matter as I would expect them to be the same for tracing supply though terrain.
Michael
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michaelm75au
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RE: For Micheal: Possible Bug air bombing AA units

Post by michaelm75au »

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Where is michaelm anyway?
I have been busy at work, and have been involved in a few other projects that have stolen my time.
Michael
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michaelm75au
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RE: For Micheal: Possible Bug air bombing AA units

Post by michaelm75au »

ORIGINAL: MrBlizzard

I've got a similar problem,
during an enemy Deliberate Attack in an hex owned by my troops appeared this message:

"8th Tank Regiment isolated with no supply!"

and after the end of combat the unit resulted completely trashed;
there was no problem of supplies in hex and in theater and all units had good supplies both at the start and at the end of turn

Image


If this message truly applied, then the replacement and upgrade option should have been N. But I see only one in picture has been changed.
Michael
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witpqs
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RE: For Micheal: Possible Bug air bombing AA units

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: michaelm

I have loaded and played thru this turn and only 'isolated' messages I see are a few for the Allied player. Which look real as the units have no supply at the end of the turn - they start out with really low supply.
26th Group Army isolated with no supply lost 2 device(s)!
200th Chinese Division isolated with no supply lost 3 device(s)!
96th Chinese Division isolated with no supply lost 4 device(s)!
22nd New Chinese Division isolated with no supply lost 4 device(s)!
2nd Reserve Division isolated with no supply lost 4 device(s)!
I play around some more to see if I can reproduce anything.
If a hex is isolated, I would expect all units in hex to be isolated as it does not seem to use the type of unit in determining supply path.
Michael,

I've never seen this format of messages about losing devices - I like it! Is it new? I didn't locate it in the patch notes (but of course I might have missed it).
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michaelm75au
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RE: For Micheal: Possible Bug air bombing AA units

Post by michaelm75au »

It is from verbose messages - used with debug
Michael
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