Captured Rome on turn 4...?

Gary Grigsby’s War in the West 1943-45 is the most ambitious and detailed computer wargame on the Western Front of World War II ever made. Starting with the Summer 1943 invasions of Sicily and Italy and proceeding through the invasions of France and the drive into Germany, War in the West brings you all the Allied campaigns in Western Europe and the capability to re-fight the Western Front according to your plan.

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mikemcmann
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Captured Rome on turn 4...?

Post by mikemcmann »

So, just wondering if this is legit and working as intended. Seemed rather simple and straight forward.

I adjusted landing zones in the grand campaign so that all my us forces landed north of rome by the lake Bolsena. I adjusted the british and canadian to land at Taranto. I used para drops in the toe boot part as that was their maxish range from africa. The paras cut the rail connection to sicily.

I did the invasion on turn two.

On my turn three I reinforced all the area with all the divisions waiting at sea.

On turn four a US armor division busted through rome and captured it with no resistance. At that point all of southern italy folded up. Parts of sicily just "became" allied. I captured corsica with the help of one us division and the italian troops. Sardinia is a bit harder to crack but in progress.

After this I began marching north. Resistance became insanely intense. Multiple large panzer divs and tons of infantry divs poured in. Bogged down a bit by Livorno but still, per comparitive history I am a yearish ahead of schedule.

Am I doing something wrong? Should I not have done this avenue? Am I risking a problem in France? I am only using he Med ground forces....

Just confused as this italian campaign portion to secure Italy seemed too "easy" Just wondering if it as intended.

Thanks

Mike
marion61
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RE: Captured Rome on turn 4...?

Post by marion61 »

With the ability to re-target TF's on turn one, just about everywhere seems to be accessible to invasion. Your only real limitation is getting thru the heavy sea interdiction near Rome, but once you get into the mountains near Florence it becomes a slog. Don't chew up a whole lot of divisions on breaking thru to Venice or Southern Germany, cause it is very difficult and you can lose a lot of VP's from casualties in Italy that you don't have to.

Taking Corsica and Sardinia is always helpful for invading Southern France, so you haven't done anything wrong if you've made it onto the beaches in Italy for good.
carlkay58
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RE: Captured Rome on turn 4...?

Post by carlkay58 »

mike - yep it is possible to do what you did. The Axis did not have that many troops in the area to begin with, they were expecting the Allies to invade the Balkans - most likely Greece. After all, Churchill was Prime Minister and he was always pushing the Balkans as a route to victory in both WWI and WWII.

What you start seeing later is the reinforcements as the troops are released from the Balkans and the reserves from other areas in response to your invasion. So if you can strike hard and fast, you can gain a lot of territory. The invasion of the mainland also probably saw the Italians surrender so the Axis were down to only the German troops to respond with.

I have gamed a lot of possibilities for the Allies and possible responses by the Axis. If the Allies do not invade all six beaches in Sicily on turn 1, then shove Italians into Sicily and the toe and run like heck with the Germans to get them back up to Naples and Taranto. Otherwise you will get cut off too easily.
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Joel Billings
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RE: Captured Rome on turn 4...?

Post by Joel Billings »

There was much discussion early on about exactly how things should work, and many changes through development that made it hard to handle all cases. We even talked about having a separate scenario that allowed amphib retargeting on turn 1. In the end, we decided to have it in the main scenario, but we discussed suggesting to players that one very reasonable house rule is to not allow retargeting on turn 1, which would greatly delay any invasion other than Sicily. This was never done, but it's a reasonable thing to discuss with your opponents (or to consider when playing against the AI). I've seen the thread re Italian surrender and will say that there are many considerations and it's not as clear cut as you might think in terms of the effects on games against human players and games against the AI. That's not to say that changes might not be made down the road, but don't expect a quick change in this area as it will take more feedback and some careful thought to avoid making things worse instead of better.

For me, the bigger issue is not Italian surrender (although I realize there are those that think this is very important), but the ability/willingness of the Allies to invade outside of fighter cover. It may well be too easy in some cases, but there's the game against the AI and games against human players and they are different. Also, we have to see the long term impact of these strategies on the game.
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mariandavid
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RE: Captured Rome on turn 4...?

Post by mariandavid »

I'm playing against the AI with re-targeting no earlier than Turn 2 and it seems to give a decent game. I suspect the AI lacks capability/forecasting at start when there is zero data input on Allied actions.
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RE: Captured Rome on turn 4...?

Post by Peltonx »

Play people for a real challenge.

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Kriegsspieler
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RE: Captured Rome on turn 4...?

Post by Kriegsspieler »

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

There was much discussion early on about exactly how things should work, and many changes through development that made it hard to handle all cases. We even talked about having a separate scenario that allowed amphib retargeting on turn 1. In the end, we decided to have it in the main scenario, but we discussed suggesting to players that one very reasonable house rule is to not allow retargeting on turn 1, which would greatly delay any invasion other than Sicily. This was never done, but it's a reasonable thing to discuss with your opponents (or to consider when playing against the AI). I've seen the thread re Italian surrender and will say that there are many considerations and it's not as clear cut as you might think in terms of the effects on games against human players and games against the AI. That's not to say that changes might not be made down the road, but don't expect a quick change in this area as it will take more feedback and some careful thought to avoid making things worse instead of better.

For me, the bigger issue is not Italian surrender (although I realize there are those that think this is very important), but the ability/willingness of the Allies to invade outside of fighter cover. It may well be too easy in some cases, but there's the game against the AI and games against human players and they are different. Also, we have to see the long term impact of these strategies on the game.

I agree wholeheartedly with your latter point. It should be impossible to mount anything larger than an amphibious raid beyond the range of fighter cover, even against the a.i. I don't mind a few house rules when playing against the computer (at my advanced age, it's reassuring that I can still outwit something! [;)] ), but having to resort to too many such devices indicate places for work in future patches.
Numdydar
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RE: Captured Rome on turn 4...?

Post by Numdydar »

Plus, unlike our RL counterparts, we do not have to write letters home [:(]. All that happens to us is some VPs lost.

I would almost make it so that the Allies could not invade at all unless there was fighter coverage at normal range. And more than one squadron too [:)]
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Balou
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RE: Captured Rome on turn 4...?

Post by Balou »

+1. Spaghetti Lvov (ref.WitE).
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Kumppi
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RE: Captured Rome on turn 4...?

Post by Kumppi »

We already have naval interdiction levels in the game. Shouldn't amphibious invasions from sea hexes that are not at least neutral be very punishing if not even impossible, although I am not a fan of hard rules. Punish don't deny is my motto :)
marion61
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RE: Captured Rome on turn 4...?

Post by marion61 »

I know first hand that if you run your loaded Amphib HQ's thru a neutral or worse zone, you can lose almost an entire division. Naval interdiction for the axis works, the AI in several games denied me beaches until I got the air support to take control of them. The axis can create a naval interdiction air directive and wreck your beaches and units coming ashore. There is a penalty for going thru a hot zone, that being your increased risk of losing transports which could cause your troops to be repelled at the beaches.
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Baelfiin
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RE: Captured Rome on turn 4...?

Post by Baelfiin »

You guys should try it out and see what you get. Just start a 2 player game, don't do anything with the allied air, change the amphibs to several hexes around rome on the allied turn. On the German turn air transfer all of the bombers from france Germany etc and bring in some of the fighters as well. You can get almost 1k bombers and fighters without stripping a lot of fighters from factory defence. Set up your naval patrol and ground attack and ground support directives, even fly some superiority on the area where you know the invasion is coming. Even move some units onto the beach where the allies will be coming.
On the next allied turn again do nothing with air and then go ahead and click invade with your amphib hq's. Click yes to however many enemy hexes that you are moving through (it doesn't seem to do anything to you don't worry.)
End the turn and see what happens on the next German turn. All I ever see is the Italians disappear even before the first landing happens. See what happens to your airbases and Luftwaffe.
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ratprince
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RE: Captured Rome on turn 4...?

Post by ratprince »

Just like Bailfiin says...

Ive started the campaing a dozen or more times now trying different landing locations all over the med... followed by pre planned 8 hex deep para drops to grab ports...then dropping more guys in those ports... Ive captured Rome six times in a row on turn 4-6. Plus Ive invaded farther reaches as well.... I was able to create islands of troops at ports all along the italian coast via paratroop captures then immediately dropping a division in the port. It must completely befuddle the AI. Ive been able to do this and have all six TPHQ at England ready to invade by France by October.

No biggie...actually it is REALLY fun being able to completely deviate from history. The AI isnt faring horribly...just confused a bit I think.. I am very happy that I am not constrained with an arbitrary invasion route. Makes this game absolutely worth the purchase for just that...

Now to figure out the Air system...hehe.... As I might add, all these invasions were done with just clicking auto AD and hitting execute.... The only thing I moved was transport air for the paras...

Great game...
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marion61
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RE: Captured Rome on turn 4...?

Post by marion61 »

Have you played far enough into one of those games and actually executed an invasion from England at that time? I know there aren't many troops in England at that time and I'm wondering what sort of reception you got when you did invade with a smaller force.
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ratprince
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RE: Captured Rome on turn 4...?

Post by ratprince »

I have.

I have 26 divisions in england ready to go to france which includes 6 armored divisions. I was able to pull all TFQ back from italy and all but a couple para brigades. I also was able to pull a 5 more divisions from Italy as they werent really needed there.

I have an invasion set with 90 or so prep points on each division and its just February.. Will likely invade as quickly as possible at best weather. Set for invasions all along the dieppe coast as well as three other preemptive in normandy. With eight TFQ in England now I have 16 divisions that will land with 8 para drops of brigade or division strength. Based on the recon the invasion sites should be reasonable a pushover.

We will see come nice weather... hehe..
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Jim D Burns
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RE: Captured Rome on turn 4...?

Post by Jim D Burns »

ORIGINAL: mike mcmann

I have 16 divisions that will land with 8 para drops of brigade or division strength.

Are you saying they will all land on the same turn? This seems excessive, no way could the allies have landed 16 divisions, there simply were not enough ships.

Jim
Panzeh
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RE: Captured Rome on turn 4...?

Post by Panzeh »

I think the Allies might have actually been successful with more aggressive invasions disregarding their own fighter cover in real life, but they had the luxury not to have to do that. The Japanese certainly were able to conduct amphibious ops without total air superiority and they operated on a shoestring.
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ratprince
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RE: Captured Rome on turn 4...?

Post by ratprince »

Unless there is some limitation I dont understand, I have 8 TFQs parked with 90 or so prep and two divisions in each. Plus every para unit which I believe is 4 divisions and 4 smaller formations. Of which I can transport four divisions and 2 regiments of paras with the available TRs. I have eight landing beaches prepared, five in the dieppe area and three in the normandy area east of Caen. I also have 8 armored divisions and 6 brigade size armor units waiting on ports ready to follow up.

So, unless it just doesnt ALLOW me to do this when I try to invade...it should happen. Based on recon, there is mostly forts and just a few divisions on the coast. I should bash ashore fairly easily followed up with the other 10 or so divisions in reserve. I should capture Caen, Le havre, Dieppe and another port in the area which means I should have no trouble dropping the reserve divs.

Ill let ya know how the invasion goes when it happens..... heh...
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marion61
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RE: Captured Rome on turn 4...?

Post by marion61 »

Not sure if this was asked before, but what turn are you on or the date?
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ratprince
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RE: Captured Rome on turn 4...?

Post by ratprince »

April early. Think its like turn 30ish

The only thing stopping my france invasion is a ridiculous week upon week of heavy rain and heavy mud.... its crazy. Did it actually rain THAT much then? If so....would not want to live there...heh...
"Yeah that I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil...because I am."
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