Interested in buying but...

Gary Grigsby’s War in the West 1943-45 is the most ambitious and detailed computer wargame on the Western Front of World War II ever made. Starting with the Summer 1943 invasions of Sicily and Italy and proceeding through the invasions of France and the drive into Germany, War in the West brings you all the Allied campaigns in Western Europe and the capability to re-fight the Western Front according to your plan.

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Aurelian
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: 76mm
Most people I know don't print ebooks. They read them on tablets. The overhead cost of an ebook is probably about as much as it cost to compile a software program and store it on a server. Sure, there's overhead but nothing like there would be to store physical products in a warehouse and deal with shipping them out. So what's your point?

Uh, unless I'm missing something, his point is exactly what you are saying. I took his questions as a form of the Socratic method*...

*The Socratic method is a form of inquiry and discussion between individuals, based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to illuminate ideas...
ORIGINAL: tevans6220
In fact, prices have remained the same or went up. We pay more and get less than we used to. Before digital distribution, if you bought a game, you would get the software, in most cases a fairly decent manual and possibly even some maps and other things. Now you pay the same price for a digital download, get a PDF manual and also pay for your own bandwidth to download it.
I don't agree with this line of reasoning--the quality of current games is generally far ahead of games from the old days. Personally I'd much prefer to pay more for a better game and a pdf manual, not to mention digital download, which is incredibly convenient.

Me thinks he doesn't get it. An ebook is cheaper than the hardcopy. An egame is cheaper than the hardcopy. If one is going to bring up how ebooks are cheaper than the hardbooks, then one has to understand *why*

And I agree, game quality is far ahead of the old days. Compare SSI's USAAF and Fighter Command to Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich. The last, price wise, is cheaper than the first two were.




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goulash
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by goulash »

With regards to sitting on fence about price.

I was always dubious to play GG WitE because of the high price in case it turned out not to be my cup of tea. It was not so much the money though that really putting me off but the perception of how complex the game was to be.

Well I bit the bullet and bought GGWitW mainly because it was western theatre and being a Brit, I had a morale duty to splat Germany. I am not adverse to paying for quality but usually I want to check that the game is quality.

Since getting it last night and watching the videos, I have to say I think the game design here is a work of art. It sure has so much to learn to ensure one gets very good at it, but despite the uber amounts of detail under the hood, I have found it quite easy to at least getting to play the first scenario within a couple of hrs, based mainly on trial and tinkering around. The Twitch release vid helped loads but I do believe the interface is very good in its own right.

My true thoughts is that I feel this game has been far easier to learn than the HOI series from Paradox yet much much more immersive. With the HOI game, it is a case read read read and never really getting to play much.

Anyway, I am now considering picking up the WITE collection and Pacific (do I get admiral edition on this one?)

Personally these should go on Steam, there are more armchair generals than you think whom are now in their 40's and starting to look for good quality games as the mainstreams are turning out to be coockie cluster time passers for a few hrs and nothing more.

Its one of those purchases I have, that within a couple of hrs, I know I will not regret it, unlike some where I thought that after the purchase the games needs a lot of work down the road to make the investment worth it e.g. (WIF).

Actually, I cant believe I have had to wait until this time to really spot it so I do think there is a point in the game not getting shown its true potential to the general masses of games. I guess that is a question that the publishers need to address though e.g. release a single scenario demo, more twitch vids, get on Steam more? Who knows?.

To OP = the game is worth the money hands down. I am completely noob to it myself but do not regret buying it.







davidepessach
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by davidepessach »

Well the point here is all about economics.
Niche price are "non-elastic", that means that if they change, up or down, the demand will not change.
Of course if they price it 500$ demand will go down, but that's out of the range.

So It's all about finding the sweet spot at which we, niche hobbyist player, will always buy the game. Those that are not interested will not buy it even if it's 20$.
Maybe you can scrap up some buyers on steam sales if you get it down to 10$ (guys not really interested in the game but attracted but the huge percentage of discount) but that would be a disaster as some of us will see that and maybe wait for steam sales the next time...

So the price point is quite right now: AAA title price for a download and a premium for the manual. So the buyer can argue "Well it's the same as a AAA videogame"...

That also explains why Matrix games are rarely discounted; and when they are it is way later than the release date...in order to get latecomers and "onfencers" in.

:-)
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by HeinzHarald »

I too like the idea of making the full manuals available to the public. For complex games that are hard to present and prove what their strengths are through screenshots or short videos or demos I find that reading the manual is a good way to evaluate if a game is for me or not. Plus if the manual is good I find that reading it in itself gets me pumped up to play.

I would also suggest creating marketing material that is closely tied to what actually happened. Perhaps clips from a gameplay session where the player tries to follow history exactly, with comparisons to what happened in real life. The intangible feeling of being a part of history so to speak is a great strength in games like this.
Numdydar
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by Numdydar »

I love these discussions [:)] It happens all the time here. Especially for the older games. " I have to pay what for a X year old game?!! Why is it not on sale for $2 by now [:@]?"

For the new people, the developers for WitW have been making these types of games since the 1980's. Mainly under the SSI brand. And they are still making these kind of games, still in the business, etc. So just a wild thought that maybe they know exactly what the price points should be and where to use their very limited time/resources in marketing these games.

All the games released by 2by3 just have three people doing these. Along with a huge number of non-paid volunteers to help out. Just the fact that they can develop games of this quality is amazing. Similar to Distant Worlds which only has one person develop that title. And the Strategic Command series which has a whopping two people involved.

Since all these people have to also pay their bills, plus matrix gets a cut, the pricing has to cover all of this. For titles that sell maybe 10k copies? The 10K is just a number picked out of thin air so could be more (hopefully) or less (hope not). I'm always surprised that they do not cost a lot more [:D]. So when I see something like this selling for <$100 its an automatic buy. As I want to get it before everyone comes to their senses and starts charging a lot more lol.

As far as Steam goes, yes it can help sales, but it has to be the right game for the right audience that is on Steam. Command Naval Ops did not release on Steam but was added after enough positive press was generated and (I assume) Matrix determined that enough people knew about the game and wanted to make it easier for everyone to find and buy. That could happen with WitW too (again assuming the same type of arc Command had).

But adding WitW to steam as part of the launch, Steam users would explode with sticker shock and destroy any good will the game may have warranted. So for anyone interested all they would hear is how much the game cost versus all the great features it has. Not a good marketing strategy.

And of course, this pricing conversation on Steam would continue for the life of the game. "The game is six months old. Why is the price still so high?" Sales would be awful as everyone would be 'sure' that the price would drop to <$20 any day now. When it did not, would start the complaining cycle all over again.

With Command, the price complainers were able to be countered by the many fans of the game highlighting what people would be getting and why they would pay twice as much for it. Which a new game that has been out less that a week, all that could be said is a Gary G. game like WitE but with a lot of improved features that are really cool. Somehow I do not think that would mean a lot to the average Steam users [:)]

I'm sure there are a lot more reasons (and since everything I wrote is just guesses lol) of why things are the way they are concerning these types of games. But I am assuming that since Matrix/2by3 has been around a lot longer than a lot of other gaming companies, that their pricing/marketing is working good enough to keep us supplied with these awesome games. I'm sure they could improve things, but if what they have works, I would much rather them work on coding new games versus using their very limited amount of time improving their marketing system [:)]
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wworld7
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by wworld7 »

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


FYI, I paid something like $80 for the original War in Russia for my Apple II some thirty plus years ago, with a much, much smaller and thinner softcover manual and two floppy disks and a map. With inflation, that would be something like $200 now I'd guess.

Regards,

- Erik

Ah, the 1980's were fun times, and expensive if you bought a lot of PC games.
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abulbulian
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by abulbulian »

ORIGINAL: raventhefuhrer

Because the game costs so much! I know it's probably impolite to talk about a company's pricing points, but it's really holding me back right now. I was wondering if there's any sort of demo I could take a look at?

Or maybe some insight into why the game is so pricey, or why it's worth it to buy?

raventhefuhrer,
As Erik already explain this game doesn't have the broad market as certain types of games (i.e. 1st person shooters). I like to refer to these shooter games as instant gratification, but they never were truly satisfying to me in the end.

A game like WitW (and WitE) does not have the backing of multiple product, development, artists, and QA teams. They work on a smaller scale staff and budgets, but don't let that fool into thinking that WitW is anything less than grandiose and deep. I can tell you after twenty plus years of board to computer gaming you'll find nothing like WitW. What 2by3 has done for computer gaming in the last decade is incredible and a dream for us hard-core war gamers. If it were not for the extreme dedication / passion of all the 2by3 staff, consultants, and testers, games like this would never have a chance to even hit the market. Considering what other games are selling for (console game $$$), I think WitW is a bargain for what you're getting. You won't be disappointed.

Have to add that Gary and Joel got me started on strategic/tactical war games back when they were producing gems at SSI. Still remember the tense moments in 'Operation Market Garden' try to get XXX corps to the bridge too far [&o]


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bo
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by bo »

I notice some comments about demos in the above posts, yeah right, not Matrix that's for sure, I wrote a post on this a while back about why Battlefront has a demo for every game and Matrix does not, I was poo pooed by some people and of course I had to read Matrix's comments on this why Matrix has very few or no demo's.

There was a post on you tube about why gaming companies do not want to show a demo, it was not flattering to say the least. For example one of the posters mentioned above that Unity of command had a demo, I was unaware of that so I down loaded it this morning to see what the demo looked like, and without insulting anyone's intelligence it was horrible and if anyone saw the demo I cannot believe they would buy that game. So thank the lord for that demo.

Thank god for "you tube" as it has been a big help for many players to see what they are buying before they buy it, my argument has always been how many wonderful games did you buy that are sitting on that I hate the game shelf, why did I buy that game sight unseen.

You get that stale argument well a demo does not really show what the game is about, decent argument but it does not hold water. What it does show you is the graphics, whether little soldiers or civil war cavalry are roaming around or if you like the way the nato counters look and how much information is on these counters, it shows you a form of playability, and yet I know it does not show everything about the game.

The "you tube" one hour version of Operation Husky is very well done and a really great demo even though it is not called s demo. It does not show you the western front in all it's glory but it does give you enough information whether you might want to buy the game.

It is one thing if the game costs $39.95 but if it costs $94.95 that is an entirely different matter. Players who own WITE have an advantage over other people trying to decide whether to put out $94.95 for WITW they have the original game and they pretty much know what to expect from Gary on this game, plus improvements of course.

I believe that WITW will not be on that ugly game shelf for many years to come and if someday Matrix's World In Flames gets finished it will be playable for many years to come due to all the variable options, it is possible with those options that the game will be played differently each time you play it.

Bo
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by Rosseau »

I paid $80 for Pac War, and it wasn't worth it [;)] However, AE certainly is, but too complex for me.

I fully expected $80 for WitW. In fact, Matrix probably takes a significant hit with the physical copy being just $14 more.

WiF at $102 was a poor choice on my part. It's now $69 so I can't even sell it. I'm playing through Barbarossa and must admit the counters look pretty nice.

I paid $5 for Magnifico and was pleasantly surprised. It's a fun hobby and one you'll rarely go broke enjoying.

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downtown
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by downtown »

I just wanted to chime in on the idea of digital books being too high because it seems producers are not passing on the savings to consumers. I like to use the analogy of Fed Ex and UPS. Since both those companies raised their prices quite a bit a couple of years ago when gas went up to $4 a gallon here in the US, how come I don't see them lower prices now at their busiest time of the year when gas here in FLA is now about $2.50 and dropping? Supply and demand...why would they lower prices now when they KNOW they don't have to, that people will still use them just as much now as they did before prices went up. Their profit margins are growing daily just because the market price of gas is dropping....don't expect to see them drop their prices anytime soon.
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fsp1978
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by fsp1978 »

First, let me say that I am happy to see that this game is turning out to be a success, because I have high hopes for the projected follow-ups. Personally, I have been priced out of this one, as the Western front in 43/44 is not THAT interesting to me (Bought WITE in its first week of release) and RL commitments are taking too much time. I would enjoy this game, but probably not put hundreds of hours into it. I was tempted by the successful release and the new features. I would buy at around $40-45. Not expecting it to hit that price soon, but that's ok. I am not complaining, just explaining.

First, the price comparison done here compared to AAA games is not entirely correct. Often it is said a AAA game costs ~$60-80 as well, but if we are talking PC here and are just content with a steam key from a key shop (which has always worked for me, without using proxies or anything), the most AAA games can be picked up at around $30-40, not 60-80.

What still holds true for most of us is the following - if you like the game, your return on investment will be a lot better than for any AAA game. Those usually never entertain for more than 30-40 hours, 40-60 hours tops (CIV being an exception). In 40-60 hours, you probably haven't finished your first campaign in a deep strategy game. So those games are worth that amount of money if you plan to really play them to the fullest.

I think the original poster (raven) makes some valid points as well. It is very interesting to see the recent plunge Matrix have taken with Steam resulting in some people finding the way here. It is encouraging as well. I can fully understand that he is very, very hesitant to pay so much money for a small niche game and it may put him off and may put off others which find there way here as well.

I however still sadly agree that this is not a good enough reason to change the prices. As Matrix, I would not change the price for WITW for my case (see above) and not for raven's as well. We as a target group are simply not big enough to warrant that. I know it has been argued to the death in these forums with every big release, but it is still true: Pricing these games at $40 will not bring in enough impulse buyers for games like WITW or WITE. It works with Panzer Corps or Battle Academy, but surely not with hardcore strategy. I have been trying to get a good friend of mine, who loves Panzer Corps, to play WITE with me, but he doesn't want to do it as he can't get past the fact that there are no icons on the map, "just crosses and circles [Armor Divisions]". Anyone knowing a WITE mod which replaces NATO symbols with icons btw?

The demo issue is easy: The cost-benefit calculation simply doesn't work for a game company, which is why so few of those are out there. I once saw a very good YouTube video on this.


However, I am confident we can help Raven with his initial question:
Have you or are you going to spend around 50-100 hours at least with Flashpoint?
Do you like the general hex strategy genre very much?
Can you agree to the idea of not having a combat resolution phase like in FP (WEGO), but taking turns in moving and fighting (IGOUGO) or would this put you off?
Was Flashpoint, a very well made game, the most hardcore strategy you would like? Or could you see yourself liking a game with even more depth and more units to move and tend to?
Can you see yourself spending 50-100 hours with such a game?

If you can answer most of these questions with yes, you can easily take the plunge and buy WITW. You will not be making a mistake. I am sure, any remaining doubts and questions can be removed by simply asking them in this forum.
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ultradave
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by ultradave »

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


Would you rather walk into a retail store and buy Chandler's Campaigns of Napoleon for over $110 or the Kindle d/l edition for $65? I don't know what you're expecting, but $80 for this WiTW is cheap for what you get.


No contest there. For that book, I want the real thing, not kindle. (I have it though so it's a moot point :-) )
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Dave A.
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Aurelian
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: ultradave

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


Would you rather walk into a retail store and buy Chandler's Campaigns of Napoleon for over $110 or the Kindle d/l edition for $65? I don't know what you're expecting, but $80 for this WiTW is cheap for what you get.


No contest there. For that book, I want the real thing, not kindle. (I have it though so it's a moot point :-) )

I got the real thing. Only $25 at a used book store.
Watched a documentary on beavers. Best dam documentary I've ever seen.
ogre
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by ogre »

When you buy a software product, you're not really buying something physical. Well, there's the manual this time...and maybe a box...or a CD. And the data manifests as either voltage levels in a computer or magnetic alignment on disks....both of which cost next to zero to maintain. And then there's the distribution channel...the costs and overhead of maintaining a website...managing sales, processing payments, advertising...yada yada. But in the big picture sense, these are side issues.

When you buy software of the caliber of WITW, the lion's share of the purchase is for the intellectual expertise, effort and capabilities of the DEVELOPER(S). Many many many hours have gone into the development of this product. That's what we're paying for. Some for the past, some for now, and some for the future. The product is priced at a point necessary to keep the train running...keep the products coming...keep the support fresh. Priced for SUCCESS!

Is it high? All else being equal, yes. But all else isn't equal. We're talking 2by3 here. A professional group with great track records...professionals in the industry. I've payed over $200 to sit in a stadium for four hours and watch 22 "professional" players bang each other up over a pigskin leather ball. Paying $100 to get my very own edition of a "professional" game like WITW that I can immerse myself in and play over and over and over again for hours and hours and hours. In that perspective, it's a bargain.

Lastly, don't underestimate YOUR time. You are going to spend many hours with this product. So it's not so much a question as to how much the product cost to acquire as it is your cost in time to play it. If I'm going to spend a lot of time learning the product, it better be a good product for my time. I'm willing to pay a premium to a professional I know can deliver...so I don't waste my time chasing illusions of fun into dead ends.

It costs what it costs because it's WORTH it.
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ultradave
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by ultradave »

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: ultradave

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


Would you rather walk into a retail store and buy Chandler's Campaigns of Napoleon for over $110 or the Kindle d/l edition for $65? I don't know what you're expecting, but $80 for this WiTW is cheap for what you get.


No contest there. For that book, I want the real thing, not kindle. (I have it though so it's a moot point :-) )

I got the real thing. Only $25 at a used book store.

Well, I've had mine since college - 1976 or so. Probably paid $25 or so back then new, but well worth it.
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RE: Interested in buying but...

Post by sfbaytf »

Its pricey, but well worth it. Unless you're going to wait for it to go on sale. I bought CMNO and Flashpoint when they went on sale so if you're the patient type just wait. Even WiF is on sale, but I'm going to pass as it looks like no AI till 2016.

I can guarantee if WitW gets completely re-done in 5-10 years it will be priced even higher. I wouldn't be surprised if it in the $150-200 range.
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