Viability of Alternative Strategies?

[76mm]

Question for the beta testers: I don't have much interest in buying this game if the victory conditions or its simulated reality essentially force Allied players into a grinding slog up through Italy and a landing in Normandy.

Have beta testers seen other effective, winning strategies? Through the Balkans? Maybe via the Nordic countries? Invasions in '43?

Also, to what extent do the Allied player's actions affect the war in Russia, and in turn, how does that affect the Allied player? For example, if the Allies invade the Balkans and start bombing the hell out of Ploesti, that would presumably help the Russians, so does it acclerate their advance on Berlin? If so, is that good or bad for the Allied player?

I've given a couple of examples, but am really mainly interested in the general concept...

[KenchiSulla]

When the Eastern Front Box is on (player control) the German player receives 100% of production (including fuel) and whatever is needed flows to Russia. When the Eastern Front Box is of 40% of aircraft and 60% of everything else flows to Russia. When the German player ignores the Russian Front, or weakens it by pulling elite divisions it might start to snowball (fluid or critical front situation).

With regard to freight (supply, fuel etc), this is in the manual:

The EF box uses freight and vehicles from depots in the
Eastern Europe map area (23.2.2). It doesn’t use the
normal hex tracing routine when determining vehicle
usage, but there is some vehicle usage required to
deliver the freight to the units in the EF box. When the EF
control option is enabled, the German player is given 75k
additional vehicles at the start of the campaign scenario.
Units in the East Front box have their supply priority
determined based on the situation in the EF box as
follows:
§§ Front is Stable – Units will be priority 2, 3, 4 or
4+, which is 4 with a bonus that they check for
replenishment before West Front priority 4 units
check. Priority will be determined randomly.
§§ Front is Fluid – Units will be priority 4 or 4+,
determined randomly.
§§ Front is Critical – Units will be priority 4+.
Units in refit status in the EF box will be considered to
be located in the same hex as Berlin (a national supply
source) 50 percent of the time, which will improve their
ability to receive replacements and supply (20.6.7).

This is my impression from reading the manual (I'm not a beta test).

[marion61]

After my first few games Italy is simple to get thru until you hit the area around Florence. I myself have never attempted an invasion on the East coast of Italy as it would cost me too many air groups just to get interdiction levels high enough to land on the beaches over there. I'm not saying it cannot be done, but with the lack of large air fields north of Foggia, any invasion out of range of Foggia would take a lot of damage just getting to the beach. As for Northern Europe, the key to landing is to achieve air interdiction over the sea hexes around the beaches, and that they are beaches that you may land at. I've landed in the Netherlands before, but the confinement in that area makes your armor just infantry with tanks. I've landed as far South as Breast and it is easily defensible for the axis since it is such a narrow front at first. My favorite site has been at Calais since the armor has room to be armor.

Before the allies can start to bomb Ploesti they have to take Taranto and the airfields near it. From there the bombers can reach the oil fields. The thing that affects the Russian front the most is how many units you take out of the East Front box to use in the west. If the recommended levels go below a certain level that is what accelerates the Russian advance. I'm not positive, but I do not think you can invade in the Balkans at this time. It is not part of the useable map and there are no axis forces in that area.

The game has good re-playability, but your only limit to where you can invade is what your air groups can cover. Hope this answered some of your questions.

[carlkay58]

Italy is usually a slow slog after the second Italian mainland landing - it just depends on how the Allies handle their second invasion as to where the 'slog' line develops. Sometimes it develops in Northern Italy but usually south of there.

Invading southern France is a slow process because of lack of ports and rail lines for supplies. The Marseilles area is the most obvious spot with a great port, some good rail lines, and the threat to outflank the Italian front. It is also somewhat easy for the Axis player to block until the northern France invasion breaks out.

Invading northern France/Belgium/Netherlands is all about building the infrastructure for successful invasions. The first invasion should be a more cautious one - probably Brest or Normandy although I have seen as far north as Pas de Calais succeed - although against a human player that is pretty risky. Usually the northern France/Belgium/Netherlands invasion comes second - after the Axis have committed full into stuffing the original invasion and stripped some of the Atlantic Wall for more troops.

I have seen northern France invasions succeed in 43 but usually the Allies have a hard time with troop levels to really take any advantage of it and the Axis have an easier time bottling it up.

You can't invade Norway or the Balkans in this game - they are outside the play area. Italy is a dead end - even if you get the northern plains you still have too much of the Alps to go through to get into Germany proper. I have fought my way through the Alps but have only been successful because of the northern France front needing additional Axis troops.

The Eastern Front option can either help or hurt the Axis. It is a temptation that the Axis player can fall into - either stripping the Western Front too much to stabilize the East or vice versa. I would not recommend that option until the Axis and Allied players have more experience. It is too easy to blow the game as the Axis with it. I have seen the Soviets take Berlin in the fall of 44 because they stripped the East too much and I have also seen the Allies in Berlin in the fall of 44 because the Axis sent too much east.

[76mm]

carlkay, thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for.

I'll try to read up on more of the AARs as they come out. So far I'm having a hard time getting excited about this one...

And I still don't understand one thing: if the Russians get to Berlin early in this game, is that good or bad for the Allied player? Depending on how VP are set up, it could be bad, because it would give the Allied player less time to take territory, etc.

[NotOneStepBack]

In my game 76mm, when the Russians got to Berlin, it was a good thing, because I had zero chance of getting to it in time, and it ended the game on turn 106 / 110 for me.

[Erik Rutins]

It's worth noting that the Allies want to land somewhere in '43 to make sure they open a second front, both to gain experience and morale for their own forces and to start bleeding the German forces both to help the Eastern Front and setup a possible collapse of the German army in '44/'45. Where you open that second front is up to you. Knocking Italy out of the war and getting a foothold and airbases in Europe and the Med that can cover Southern France has strategic value.

Landing in France itself is also possible, but just as it's tough to push the Germans up the Italian boot, it's also tough for them to push you back out - as such it can be a good place to fight. It is also possible, because of the geography and depending on the actions of your Axis opponent to exploit the long flanks with amphibious landings and cut off and destroy a large group of German forces if you are lucky or the German player is not careful enough. You can also have Anzio-type landings or worse.

We've seen many strategies tried during testing by both sides and the AI has a range of choices as well, but I'm sure that over the coming months we will see strategies tried that we have not yet seen.

Regards,

- Erik

[histgamer]

So it seems that the Germans can lose in the Eastern front faster than historical, can they hold out longer in the East Front if not enough pressure is put in the west? Shifting more forces east than historical results in a slower soviet advance?

[RedLancer]

ORIGINAL: flanyboy

So it seems that the Germans can lose in the Eastern front faster than historical, can they hold out longer in the East Front if not enough pressure is put in the west? Shifting more forces east than historical results in a slower soviet advance?

Yes and yes - whilst WitW is not about the Ostfront the EF Box provides the impact of that campaign on the West.

[Joel Billings]

Yes, the Soviets can take longer to get to Berlin. If the Soviets get to Berlin early that's good for the Allies as the early end points are going to be more than what the Allies would gain from taking territory. However, if the Allies have done poorly scoring points throughout the game, then the Soviets ending the war early is not necessarily going to mean an Allied victory.

There are some things the Allies can do that can really cost them VPs. They have to get a beachhead in Europe by early 44 or they lose a bunch. If they don't have a good beachhead in Northern Europe by summer 44, they lose a ton. And if they ignore the U-boat factories and V-weapon launch sites and factories, they can lose some as well. You get more points for taking cities earlier in the game, so if you manage to capture Rome early you will get some VPs for that. It's a more dynamic VP system than WitE so it's harder to analyze (more tradeoffs).

[Chuske]

In final stages of testing I managed to get an invasion of French coast to succeed in gaining a significant beachhead in Sept 43 (around Dieppe). To do so I had to scale back operations in the Med to taking just the major islands (Sicily, Corsica and Sardinia) plus a token force on the Italian toe. When I have time I hope to AAR this game in the public forum.

So yes non-historical strategies are feasible apart from Balkans and Norway.