Why I'm Not Buying (Yet)

[carlkay58]

vonRocko - I am a playtester and I finished about five games through the playtesting. I know several other playtesters did too. While all of my playtest campaigns were as the Allied player, I know that several others finished them as the Axis player. The game probably will still need some balancing out - and you can only do that with a lot more game results than the playtesters were able to generate.

WitW 43 campaign takes less than half of the time of the WitE 41 campaign and we won't even compare it to the massive time commitment for WitP. We should start seeing some campaign results against the AI in the next week or two - depending on people's time on the game. I would not be surprised if we see a Human vs Human game finish by the end of this month.

[modrow]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'm "in" if WitW turns out to be a masterpiece. But based upon what I've seen with the releases of WitE (all kinds of bugs) and WiF (promises not kept, at least after more than a year), I'm leary of making the investment. I want to hear from players I know and trust that the game is fantastic. I don't want to go through years of teething pains on a product that isn't ready or is poorly balanced or is buggy.

I've been spoiled by WitP: AE. Best game ever. I'm pretty sure I'd be happy playing it until my life comes to an end, if only it didn't require so much time! (That's a compliment, by the way.)

So, if WitW is fun and of good quality and doesn't require immense time on the scale of AE, then I'll buy it. But I need to see and hear the reviews from trusted players first.

Hey Dan!
Nice to see you're still lurking around and sniffing

I have your very same concerns, but, as i was telling Obvert this morning by email, i will buy it blind, no matter what.
The fact is that WITPAE is such a good game that i find really hard (almost impossible) to play anything else.
(to be honest, there are evenings - many- where, while laying down with my GF, i can't help but thinking about what Obvert will do in India, how i will manage the Ha-35 Engine production in 1943 or which location is better to fortify for the next allied advance, instead of devoting to what should be the "love of my life"... shhh, don't ever tell her!)
... so WITPAE is such a great game... and i would find a bit "un-grateful" (sp!?) towards the GG Devs team not to buy their newer products not because i've not been happy with their previous, but because i've been (i am) even TOO happy with what they've done so far.
It's like if my clients had such a good feedback from what i've done for them that they wouldn't buy anymore of my services in the future... quite a paradox!

So, i'm gonna buy it. Don't know if i will ever play it (guess so), but i will. Just like as i've done with BTR, WITE etc...

They simply deserve that, imho.

Also i've played BTR enough in the past to know how good the new air system will be. I trust them because i've seen their products. They may have some problems (which product doesn't have em!?) but, for sure, they are the best on town.

my 0,02 cents[:)]

+1.

GreyJoy summarized my own sentiments perfecly. I bought yesterday because I want to make Matrix continue to publish games of this type (How about a WitP II, btw...). It remains to be seen whether WitW will outclass WitP/WitP-AE.

What also added to the decision to buy was that BTR and WitE both made it to second place on my personal favourite list for a while. These titles were just unlucky that WitP/WitP-AE consumed almost all my playing time [8D].

So THANK YOU 2by3 and Matrix for publishing this title. I appreciate it and I want to support it.

Just my thoughts

Hartwig

[vonRocko]

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

vonRocko - I am a playtester and I finished about five games through the playtesting. I know several other playtesters did too. While all of my playtest campaigns were as the Allied player, I know that several others finished them as the Axis player. The game probably will still need some balancing out - and you can only do that with a lot more game results than the playtesters were able to generate.

WitW 43 campaign takes less than half of the time of the WitE 41 campaign and we won't even compare it to the massive time commitment for WitP. We should start seeing some campaign results against the AI in the next week or two - depending on people's time on the game. I would not be surprised if we see a Human vs Human game finish by the end of this month.

Thanks carlkay58. I'll be getting this one!

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Kriegsspieler

I agree. A game that starts in 1943 misses the ebb and flow of the entire theater. But clearly that's coming down the road, because the mechanics for putting the entire European side of the war together are now in place. Think of the money you pay for this game as a downpayment on the final product! [:D]

I had not realized this factor (1943 start) was bothering me on an unconscious level until obvert said it out loud. I get all the marketing reasons to do the hard-core years in the West first, but it does seem . . . jarring after playing WITP/AE so long and having to fight through the tough early era to get to the fat times as Allies.

A complete 1939-1945 WitW . .. man, big, tasty meal! I'm already wondering how they handle the Battle of the Atlantic, on which so much turned.

[Mundy]

It would almost look like a role for an Atlantic WITP-AE.

To us Pacific guys, the Med would probably feel claustrophobic.

[RedLancer]

It's not marketing really -  it's development time.  WitW took well over two years.  If you push the timeline back beyond May 43 you really need a more developed naval game which adds another layer of complexity to iron out and balance. 

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

It's not marketing really -  it's development time.  WitW took well over two years.  If you push the timeline back beyond May 43 you really need a more developed naval game which adds another layer of complexity to iron out and balance. 

True. Plus things like the French and Dutch militaries.

But I'm a naval guy! [:)]

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Kriegsspieler

I agree. A game that starts in 1943 misses the ebb and flow of the entire theater. But clearly that's coming down the road, because the mechanics for putting the entire European side of the war together are now in place. Think of the money you pay for this game as a downpayment on the final product! [:D]

I had not realized this factor (1943 start) was bothering me on an unconscious level until obvert said it out loud. I get all the marketing reasons to do the hard-core years in the West first, but it does seem . . . jarring after playing WITP/AE so long and having to fight through the tough early era to get to the fat times as Allies.

A complete 1939-1945 WitW . .. man, big, tasty meal! I'm already wondering how they handle the Battle of the Atlantic, on which so much turned.

Exactly! With the popularity of WIPT:AE and the previous versions, all driven by naval combat and logistics, how about convoys and wolf packs and commerce raiders and Condors and Flower class boats pitching through winter gales!?! Will the Italian fleet make into battle or get sunk in port? Can the Germans supply North Africa effectively? Can the Allies get supplies to Russia and GB? Which Norwegian fjord is hiding the Turpitz!?!

A War in the Atlantic and Mediterranean would definitely make me interested in playing this game, and without it feels a bit like a hot dog without the bun, or the mustard.

Since I just read a book about the incredible influence of photo recon in the European Theatre, I also wonder how that is modeled in game. Are the sides equal in game (because they were far from it in the war). Can recon be used to enhance combat capabilities? Can you discover weapons programs and vital factories in order to destroy them?

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

It's not marketing really -  it's development time.  WitW took well over two years.  If you push the timeline back beyond May 43 you really need a more developed naval game which adds another layer of complexity to iron out and balance. 

Is that on the table for the future?

[offenseman]

For this game, the start date seems reasonable for the largest campaign game. TBH it never occurred to me to be bothered by it and that Germany would be on the down side of a steep hill for the entire game. Instead it seemed to me to be a great opportunity to do better than historical; sort of like one has to do in AE as Japan.

I had WitE and was disappointed but knowing how much was learned from its initial release, bought this one blind. I even accept that a fast update will be needed and issued, then another. Because any game of even moderate complexity is never perfect and always needs to iron out a few wrinkles. So in the interim, I'll play scenarios so that the time investment of a GC is not wasted until the kinks get worked out and use that time to learn how to play it well. Win-win all the way around.

All that said, I would love to see a War in Europe that include the map from the Eastern US seaboard to the Urals and Arctic Circle to North Africa, with AE style naval rules and economies.

[RedLancer]

Joel wrote this text way back in Feb 2012 (Original here:  http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3051557  )
 
Our next game will be War in the West 43-45 which will be the same scale as WitE and will include a more robust air game with the land campaigns and strategic bombing. After that we plan on War in the West 40 (which will include Norway, France, England and the Med, and add a new detailed naval system) and War in the West 41-42 which will focus on the Med. War in the West 43-45 will have campaigns that start in the summer of 43 and the summer of 44, as well as shorter scenarios. We have an alpha map for all of Europe (including the Soviet Union to east of the Urals), North Africa and the Middle East). We plan to use this map to eventually produce a WitE 2.0 which would fit in with the War in the West products and allow us to fill in a complete War in Europe. Of course, this will take many years.
 
It's great to see all you WitP guys here - having played WitP, WPO and WitP:AE I merely observe that WitP is a principally a naval game with abstracted land units whereas WitW is a land game with an abstracted naval model.  I love your thinking but quite how it might work takes genius - thank goodness for GG.
 


 

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Kriegsspieler

I agree. A game that starts in 1943 misses the ebb and flow of the entire theater. But clearly that's coming down the road, because the mechanics for putting the entire European side of the war together are now in place. Think of the money you pay for this game as a downpayment on the final product! [:D]

I had not realized this factor (1943 start) was bothering me on an unconscious level until obvert said it out loud. I get all the marketing reasons to do the hard-core years in the West first, but it does seem . . . jarring after playing WITP/AE so long and having to fight through the tough early era to get to the fat times as Allies.

A complete 1939-1945 WitW . .. man, big, tasty meal! I'm already wondering how they handle the Battle of the Atlantic, on which so much turned.

1943 is not really a fat time - the Germans are not pushovers and as the Allies you will find they have a good amount of control over their own destiny and can cause you a lot of problems right up to 1945.

More directly though - going earlier would have required not only a new air game, but also a new naval game, which was beyond the scope of development. WITW is the result of four years of additional research, development and testing after WITE.

We would like to go earlier as well, but with a future release.

Regards,

- Erik

[JocMeister]

Downloading right now. I hope my fellow AE players will do the same! [:)]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

Joel wrote this text way back in Feb 2012 (Original here:  http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3051557  )

Our next game will be War in the West 43-45 which will be the same scale as WitE and will include a more robust air game with the land campaigns and strategic bombing. After that we plan on War in the West 40 (which will include Norway, France, England and the Med, and add a new detailed naval system) and War in the West 41-42 which will focus on the Med. War in the West 43-45 will have campaigns that start in the summer of 43 and the summer of 44, as well as shorter scenarios. We have an alpha map for all of Europe (including the Soviet Union to east of the Urals), North Africa and the Middle East). We plan to use this map to eventually produce a WitE 2.0 which would fit in with the War in the West products and allow us to fill in a complete War in Europe. Of course, this will take many years.

It's great to see all you WitP guys here - having played WitP, WPO and WitP:AE I merely observe that WitP is a principally a naval game with abstracted land units whereas WitW is a land game with an abstracted naval model.  I love your thinking but quite how it might work takes genius - thank goodness for GG.

Thanks for this. I knew I had read somewhere about at least two follow-on games, but not where I had read it. The 2x3 site is pretty spare and doesn't discuss the future.

I'm trying to be careful here about butting in as I'm not currently a buyer. Kind of like owning a Porsche (AE) and having a neighbor buy a Jag. You go over to take a look, but you don't want to get in the way of the Jag club who is standing around the new baby oohing and aahing. This one is going to attract a lot of AE players, just as WitE did. Many came back to AE after they wrung it out. A WitW with heavy Atlantic naval? Maybe they don't come back. [:)]

[Grotius]

I too eventually will want a 1939-40 start, and I'm glad Red Lancer reminded us of Joel's post about later WiTW games. But for now, I actually see some PBEM advantages to the 1943 start. Some people are better at D than O, and this way you can go all-in on D. Also, it might be nice to try playing the Axis without matching their offensive triumphs. In a full WW2 game, I always feel like the game is a letdown if the Axis messes up its early blitzkrieg, because the endgame becomes less interesting.

So far I certainly don't regret the purchase of WiTW. The air, weather and logistics systems alone justify the purchase for me.

[gexmex]

Would the earlier years of the war come as standalone releases at standalone release prices, or add-ons to this current War in the West? I guess what I'm wondering is if WitW would be the initial investment, and then the follow up content would be like $40-$50 instead of $100. I'm assuming the naval changes would be very significant, but since it's all in the same theater, I'm guessing the land and air aspects wouldn't necessarily have to change a great deal.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Downloading right now. I hope my fellow AE players will do the same! [:)]

Did you clear this with Herself?!! You're gonna be in trouuuuuuuuble! [:'(]

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Downloading right now. I hope my fellow AE players will do the same! [:)]

Did you clear this with Herself?!! You're gonna be in trouuuuuuuuble! [:'(]

Haha, I actually did. And I bought Command and Flashpoint last week. She havn´t seen the bill yet though... [:D]

[Canoerebel]

ORIGINAL: Grotius

...I always feel like the game is a letdown if the Axis messes up its early blitzkrieg, because the endgame becomes less interesting.

As Japan I lost
Now in the Wild West
I will lose again

[Canoerebel]

P.S. The haiku is in honor of Grotius. Back during his WitP:AE days, several players would post haiku's in Grotius's AAR. It's been awhile since those days. But Grotius will lose again.