Amazed

[Rogue187]

As I have faced the daunting task of getting the Allied war effort off the ground, I have been using the Allied setup guide that was created. Please someone, let me know who to thank. In the several hours I have spent setting up, I was reminded as to why I avoided playing the game. I was never afraid of the strategy or the battles, but the immensity of the logistics of fighting the war in the Pacific. If it was left up to me I would probably have left the troops and most of the ships in Western Australia and Alaska alone, never to be used. I had always figured on using Australia to keep the Southwest Pacific supplied while the US supplied the main thrust. Never would I have thought to use YP's and AM's on ASW patrols let alone have a good patrol zone for them. My planes would have only trained unless in theater and I would never have built forts along the coast line of America.

As I have been moving units from east to west, south to north and not really having any idea as to why I have been simply amazed. Amazed that people figured out the best places to send units to get the Allies moving. To make way points in the middle of nowhere so that transports have safe routes to America. The size and composition of TF's to LA and the remarkable endurance of ships to get from point A to point B. I grossly underestimated how far ships can really go. I am astonished how little I understood of logistics and what it took to keep Australia supplied. I am now making TF in places I could never figured out what to do with. WWII was fought with hundreds of people doing the logistical planning that one person is doing in this game. The fact that someone wrote down everything necessary to get the Allies off the ground is astounding. Thank you to all the people who have worked so hard to make things easier for beginners. Plus my utmost respect for those who have taken the time to play out the game, to have learned such a complex system, and passed on their knowledge.

[reggimann]

I take it you're referring to this: tm.asp?m=2306421

This is Kull's amazing work. I'm setting up Turn 1 right now and I was very pleased to read your post. Can't wait to get it going!The amount of work that went into documenting 4800 entities and their orders is just crazy. The really cool kind of crazy.

[obvert]

This is some of the best stuff about playing this game; the forum and the effort and responses you will get from the people who've played this game for years.

It's a fun ride. Enjoy the process and it gets even better when you begin playing a person with all of the psychology and surprises that come along with that.

[tigercub]

you think thats hard try japan! enjoy .

Tigercub

[Numdydar]

+1 to that [:D]

I've actually never player as the Allies yet btw. As far as I can tell the initial turns are a breeze compared to what JFBs have to do [X(]

[Mundy]

Yep. My one attempt as the Japanese always left me scratching my head. Their entire OOB seemed to make no sense.

For the Allies, it's basically start shipping supplies and people wholesale from the start. More forward areas like Pearl and Suva can feed the various small bases nearer the war. I think the trick is figuring out how to distribute your shipping so that you don't have a lot wasting time in port.

I'd go into more detail, but my evil opponent doesn't need the help... [;)]

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

+1 to that [:D]

I've actually never player as the Allies yet btw. As far as I can tell the initial turns are a breeze compared to what JFBs have to do [X(]

You've got to be kidding!

All the Japanese player has to do is aim the juggernaut.

It the daunting task of the Allied player to find a way to keep that juggernaut from conquering the planet with ill equipped, untrained scattered forces.

The Allied player clearly has the much more difficult task.

And NO, I'm NOT referring to the tedium of the several billion mouse clicks necessary to initiate the first turn.

Yes, the Japanese side requires many more clicks than the Allied side.

I'm talking about the actual challenges faced by the player.

[crsutton]

I second HansBolter. With one full campaign under my belt and another one in late 1942. I would have to say the most enjoyable part of the game as an Allied player is the entire year of 1942. A good Japanese player can push you much harder than they could historically and it is a year of fighting for your life. Every move, every withdrawal is critical. It is both nerve racking and enjoyable as all heck. You roll into 1943 with your nuts intact and you are pretty much in shape to win. The whole game is fun but 1942 is the best part.

[GreyJoy]

Having played both sides in long PBEM Grand Campaign games, my opinion is that what really makes Japan hard to play is the sense of fragility that your OOB has...you know you can't efford to lose a single DD or a single day wasted for some loading mistakes...the time runs fast when you play Japan and the first 4 months of war are the most stressfull things to be played in the game...much more than anything else, both sides.

The logistic playing the allies (especially in DBB environement) can be stressfull too, but in a complete different meaning.

However, back on track... Rogue187: enjoy the step learning curve... you will never stop learning in this game...but this is the best game ever created, hands down

[Yaab]

Turn 1 is epic for the Allies. My MS Word checklist for the Allied first turn has grown to 15 pages. Two years ago it was just 11 pages long. Go figure.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Turn 1 is epic for the Allies. My MS Word checklist for the Allied first turn has grown to 15 pages. Two years ago it was just 11 pages long. Go figure.

My last japanese 1st turn took me 13 days of hard working (4/5 hours per day)...[X(][X(][X(][X(]

[Yaab]

I was once setting up the "perfect turn" for the Allies. Clocked 120 hrs in 60 days and then quit, heheh. You Japs have it easy!

The Restart in the Pacific: Madmiral Edition!

[sanch]

2 + months to do my Japanese 1st turn at maybe 15-20 hours per week. First PBEM, tho, and first time I ever played Japan. Next time, it'll be much quicker (i.e. maybe a month)!

[wdolson]

I think both sides have a lot of work. The Allies have a bigger OOB and in the early going there are lots and lots of holes to plug. The early going is basically triage.

The Japanese has a lot of forces at start and they have much better experience and are equipped to do a lot of damage, but the early going is a short window and they need to achieve a lot.

In addition, the Japanese need to worry about managing the economy. It's a bit of a balancing act, too little attention and there will be ramifications down the line. Make too many changes and the wheels fall off the entire system.

The challenges are different, but both sides have probably about equal levels of concerns.

Bill

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I think both sides have a lot of work. The Allies have a bigger OOB and in the early going there are lots and lots of holes to plug. The early going is basically triage.

The Japanese has a lot of forces at start and they have much better experience and are equipped to do a lot of damage, but the early going is a short window and they need to achieve a lot.

In addition, the Japanese need to worry about managing the economy. It's a bit of a balancing act, too little attention and there will be ramifications down the line. Make too many changes and the wheels fall off the entire system.

The challenges are different, but both sides have probably about equal levels of concerns.

Bill

Spoken like a true moderator Bill.

Or perhaps more like a parent settling a spat amongst siblings over who has the more difficult chores....

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: sanch

2 + months to do my Japanese 1st turn at maybe 15-20 hours per week. First PBEM, tho, and first time I ever played Japan. Next time, it'll be much quicker (i.e. maybe a month)!

Here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

[sanch]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: sanch

2 + months to do my Japanese 1st turn at maybe 15-20 hours per week. First PBEM, tho, and first time I ever played Japan. Next time, it'll be much quicker (i.e. maybe a month)!

Here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

[:D]
Did get more than one email from opponent wondering when the war would start!

[Rogue187]

Trying to do the turn 1 set up has taught me a lot about how difficult the opening turn should have been when I was first starting this game and it has caused me to think of a lot of questions. I am not trying to take anything away from Kull, but I am playing out everything as he has laid out on blind faith. While a lot of it makes sense, especially creating the cargo TF's, I have been wondering about the logic of what I am trying to do. Here are a few to get started.

1. A lot of the cargo TF's have long routes with one or two waypoints, but many have different waypoints. For example I may have 3 TF's from Brisbane going to LA, but they all take different routes. Is the AI smart enough to figure out our TF routes or was this just to keep things a little random?

2. Lots of ASW aircraft patrols. One thing I have learned in the forums, is that this tends to be a waste. Most people seem to do Naval Searches at low altitude to get the same affect at longer range. Is this start up guide just out of date or is the goal to train up your squadron's ASW abilities? I do like how he has the planes broken up 40% patrol and 20% train. It seems more realistic to me.

3. Troop movement. There are some planes that I have seen moved around, and they are acutely reflecting the real life deployment of the squadrons. But I am moving LCU's all over the place and I don't know why. Some bases are being abandoned, others moved out so someone can move in, etc. Is this to recreate the movement of the troops or is this just "best practices" from multiple games? Basically saying "Hey, you are going to want this here. I know."

4. Building airfield, forts, ports. There are some that are being built even with the plan to move out the ENG company and bring in a new one. Does the new company pick up from where the other left off or do they have to start over? Also, a lot of these bases have low supply and are inland. Do I get to look forward to days of red "!" all over the map until the overland supplies catch up?

5. The ASW and Cargo TFs. Do I want to keep the ASW patrols on forever patrol? I know that things will change as the war wears on, but should I keep YP whatever on forever patrol? Same thing with the cargo TFs. Keep them on the same route and together for as long as possible?

6. Full load vs partial load. If I have an ASE patrol linger for a day and put tactical refuel on the patrol waypoints but the TF is on full refuel, which one will it do?

I still have some more questions, but I think that is enough for now. One thing I have learned is to make an independent save of turn 1. I don't want to do this again. Time to go and start moving LCU's around China. Ugh.

[HansBolter]

The reason why the ASW mission seems a waste is the lack of experience of the pilots in that skill.

From game start it takes about 3-4 months of constant ASW patrolling before they will do anything more than just spot the subs.

At about 4-5 months into the game they will start making attacks. As time goes by the attacks will increase in frequency and accuracy.

If you forgo the mission in favor of longer range NAV search you will never develop pilots with sufficient ASW skill to start making attacks.

The early period is an investment period.

[btd64]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I second HansBolter. With one full campaign under my belt and another one in late 1942. I would have to say the most enjoyable part of the game as an Allied player is the entire year of 1942. A good Japanese player can push you much harder than they could historically and it is a year of fighting for your life. Every move, every withdrawal is critical. It is both nerve racking and enjoyable as all heck. You roll into 1943 with your nuts intact and you are pretty much in shape to win. The whole game is fun but 1942 is the best part.

+++1....GP