What is the role of infantry?

The new Cold War turned hot wargame from On Target Simulations, now expanded with the Player's Edition! Choose the NATO or Soviet forces in one of many scenarios or two linked campaigns. No effort was spared to model modern warfare realistically, including armor, infantry, helicopters, air support, artillery, electronic warfare, chemical and nuclear weapons. An innovative new asynchronous turn order means that OODA loops and various effects on C3 are accurately modeled as never before.

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raventhefuhrer
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What is the role of infantry?

Post by raventhefuhrer »

I am looking for some help on how to use infantry effectively, and what exactly their role is in this game and the Cold War battlefield.

I understand that in this era the tanks are meant to be the spearheads, and infantry generally follow behind. This makes sense because tanks are the harder targets and generally have longer engagement ranges, they're the best prepared for first contact combat. Though, I would imagine that at close range and in concealing terrain (forests, cities) you'd want the infantry to go in first to locate threats before moving tanks in.

Anyways, I haven't really found a good use for infantry yet. The vast majority of my infantry kills seem to actually come from the ATGMs on their IFVs, not from the infantrymen themselves. Likewise when I position my infantry in ways that would seem advantageous to them (for example in the middle of a city) I often find that enemy armor literally rolls over them, inflicting catastrophic losses while taking very negligible losses of their own.

So at best, my infantry seems to be a speed bump rather than a danger to enemy tanks, even in seemingly ideal circumstances. I don't think I've yet seen a situation where two infantry platoons actually start firing at each other with personal weapons, and I'm positive that even at close range my infantry is inflicting basically no losses to enemy tanks - losses that are inflicted are probably attributable to the IFV more than the infantry.

So I guess I am asking, what should my infantry be doing? I haven't found a good role or use for my actual infantrymen, and generally they've just been passengers who are along for the ride and the IFV is what I really want.

Could anyone give me some insight on what my infantry should be doing from a strategic sense, but also advice on how to actually control infantry? For example, when to use 'Assault' or 'Move - Deliberate', how many hexes from objective I should disembark infantry, and so on.
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Alex1812
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RE: What is the role of infantry?

Post by Alex1812 »

I agree. The infantry looks not so strong in the game. Tanks win at any situation, even in close combat and close terrain. In my opinion, protection of tanks (and other vehicles) and its firepower must be decreased for close terrain.
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RogerJNeilson
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RE: What is the role of infantry?

Post by RogerJNeilson »

I also would love to know what their use is, other than simply dying.

At present they sit somewhere I have told them to be, if they have ATGMs they kill the odd tank, infantry to infantry combat does not seem to produce any results. OTOH both tanks and artillery wipe out their vehicles and the troops even though they are no longer in their vehicles....

Its a mystery to me. WP just seem to bring them late to the party once 'in theory' the tanks have rolled up evrything, but NATO I have to wonder, in a defensive situation, what really is the point of the main infantry units. Maybe they wondered the same at the time?

Roger
An unplanned dynasty: Roger Neilson, Roger Neilson 11, Roger Neilson 3 previous posts 898+1515 + 1126 = 3539.....Finally completed my game which started the day WITP:AE was released
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RogerJNeilson
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RE: What is the role of infantry?

Post by RogerJNeilson »

I also have no clue how to use the 'assault' command...

Roger
An unplanned dynasty: Roger Neilson, Roger Neilson 11, Roger Neilson 3 previous posts 898+1515 + 1126 = 3539.....Finally completed my game which started the day WITP:AE was released
Mymafia
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RE: What is the role of infantry?

Post by Mymafia »

It would be quite interesting if there was a campaign in which the leading role was - infantry.
Well, you know, intelligence infantry in the woods, trenches with infantry, special forces infantry, engineers infantry.
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CapnDarwin
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RE: What is the role of infantry?

Post by CapnDarwin »

Infantry in the open dies rather quickly from other infantry and vehicles. They are better suited to controlling city objectives where they have bonuses to fighting vehicles. Some infantry in the game are ill equipped to handle tanks. Use the subunit inspector to see if they have any HEAT weapons (RPGs, LAW, etc) that can take down tanks. Infantry also have a very short range of 0 to 1 hex. They are better set to hold in good cover and screen in poor. NATO units are about a third the size of the Soviet units. Keep that in mind when assaulting or defending against them. Use your infantry to engage the enemies infantry to keep your vehicles from being hammered in cities. It is a bit of a role switch from WW2.
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calgar
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RE: What is the role of infantry?

Post by calgar »

Mymafia said

It would be quite interesting if there was a campaign in which the leading role was - infantry.

Have you tried the "Purple one" scenario?

A
Lowlaner2012
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RE: What is the role of infantry?

Post by Lowlaner2012 »

Hi guys just thought I would add to this discussion, since 2.06 I have used infantry to mostly defend in urban terrain near objectives....

I have had numerous same hex combats (again in urban terrain) where my NATO infantry managed to kill red tanks...

Don't forget that most of the infantry weapons in the game, small arms and light AT weapons have a very short range and are suited to same hex close combat...

So I believe that infantry are best used for defence or attack in covered terrain, the trick is getting them there fast and safely, either using cover and/or supporting them with tanks, arty and air support until they reach there objective hex :-)

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henri51
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RE: What is the role of infantry?

Post by henri51 »

Infantry is almost useless, but hard to kill in cities. They are worth 5-10 times less than tanks, so are good to make enemies waste their ammo and to die instead of tanks. If five infantry can take out one tank before they die, that is a good deal for the infantry
Lowlaner2012
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RE: What is the role of infantry?

Post by Lowlaner2012 »

Hi Henri1 that sounds a lot like Soviet doctrine ;)
istari6
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RE: What is the role of infantry?

Post by istari6 »

Under 2.06, I've had infantry perform quite well in cities, IF they're Dug-In (Hold) and Soviet armor rolls right over the top of them. Even 1 hex distance drops their effectiveness dramatically. But since the AI tends to roll towards VP locations along roads, it's not hard to position infantry squads in dense urban areas on the VP location and the hex or two approaching it. Just last night, an American infantry platoon (4 Mech Infantry squads) destroyed an entire T-80B1 tank company (10) over the course 1-2 turns when the T-80s rolled on top of them. They only lost 1-2 squads themselves.

Remember too that the Americans are using the M72 LAW (24 HEAT, 150m range) and the Germans the PzF 44 (25 HEAT, 300m range). These are both simply unable to kill the latest Soviet armor unless getting flank, rear or top shots. So in 1989 we're seeing a period when NATO infantry were generally weak against the newest Soviet MBTs equipped with ERA and various composite armors. The British are in a much better place with the brand-new LAW 80 (47 HEAT, 500m range).
istari6
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RE: What is the role of infantry?

Post by istari6 »

My biggest problem with infantry in the current engine is that we can't separate the IFVs from the dismount squads. This leads to either IFVs suffering very high losses when the MBTs roll on top of them at point-blank range, or positioning the IFVs at some distance but pulling their infantry squads completely out of the fight. I know this is partially a problem with mechanized infantry doctrine in general, and that commanders in real-life were debating what to do with such anemic infantry squads if separated from close IFV fire support, but would still like to experiment with different tactics. Even being able to step the IFVs 1 hex from their dismounts would probably drop their losses significantly in close terrain. Hopefully this will be something that can be incorporated into 2.1+.

Chris
Lowlaner2012
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RE: What is the role of infantry?

Post by Lowlaner2012 »

I was playing the rhino scenario and the British infantry did really well against the Russian T 80s in urban terrain, I didn't realise they had a better model LAW than the.Americans....
IronMikeGolf
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RE: What is the role of infantry?

Post by IronMikeGolf »

In this game engine, your infantry is very much at the mercy of the scenario designer. First there is the issue of organization and equipment. In my battaion during this time period, a mech platoon looked like this:

4 x M2A2 BFV (5 rds TOW per track)
2 x Rifle Squad:
9 men
M16A2
M249 SAW
M203 40mm GL
M136 (AT4) (8 rds)
M47 Dragon (8 rds)

Then there is engineering. Because there is no in-game player controlled countermobility (obstacles and mines) nor improved positions, you c an't really do a deliberate defense, unless the scenario designer creates a defense for you.

When I get back from vacation, I'll see if I can make a scenario that gives you a sense of what a US mech bn defending is like.

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battlerbritain
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RE: What is the role of infantry?

Post by battlerbritain »

ORIGINAL: highlandcharge

I was playing the rhino scenario and the British infantry did really well against the Russian T 80s in urban terrain, I didn't realise they had a better model LAW than the.Americans....

Brit troops better equipped than US troops? It doesn't happen very often, believe me! [:D]
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Hexagon
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RE: What is the role of infantry?

Post by Hexagon »

I think infantry needs appear in nº of soldiers, leave squad as a container for infantry with a number that show the squad firepower.

Vehicles... separate in 2 counters vehicles and infantry incease game complexity... but i think only with a change in how vehicles "expose" increasing their survive rate is enough and with infantry not falling in complete squads sure made infantry more usefull... or at least capable to survive more time.

I dont know if is posible like in Steel Panthers add a parameter to control units "survive rate" maybe the point is more in made infantry stronger compared with vehicles controled by players.
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cbelva
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RE: What is the role of infantry?

Post by cbelva »

ORIGINAL: istari6

My biggest problem with infantry in the current engine is that we can't separate the IFVs from the dismount squads. This leads to either IFVs suffering very high losses when the MBTs roll on top of them at point-blank range, or positioning the IFVs at some distance but pulling their infantry squads completely out of the fight. I know this is partially a problem with mechanized infantry doctrine in general, and that commanders in real-life were debating what to do with such anemic infantry squads if separated from close IFV fire support, but would still like to experiment with different tactics. Even being able to step the IFVs 1 hex from their dismounts would probably drop their losses significantly in close terrain. Hopefully this will be something that can be incorporated into 2.1+.

Chris
I think we all would like to see this. Separating the infantry from the vehicle was the original intent of the programmer. Unfortunately, he was not able to get the AI to work properly and eventually had to abandon (at least for now) the two counter concept early in development. Will we see it eventually, I don't know. It all really depends on the development of the AI and whether it gets to the point where it can handle two separate counters for an infantry platoon.
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cbelva
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RE: What is the role of infantry?

Post by cbelva »

ORIGINAL: Iron Mike Golf

In this game engine, your infantry is very much at the mercy of the scenario designer. First there is the issue of organization and equipment. In my battaion during this time period, a mech platoon looked like this:

4 x M2A2 BFV (5 rds TOW per track)
2 x Rifle Squad:
9 men
M16A2
M249 SAW
M203 40mm GL
M136 (AT4) (8 rds)
M47 Dragon (8 rds)

Then there is engineering. Because there is no in-game player controlled countermobility (obstacles and mines) nor improved positions, you c an't really do a deliberate defense, unless the scenario designer creates a defense for you.

When I get back from vacation, I'll see if I can make a scenario that gives you a sense of what a US mech bn defending is like.

From this TOE I can tell you were in the army after me. Your points on countermobility and the infantry being at the mercy of the scenario designer is well taken. The scale and time frame of this game in reality does not include the "preparation time" it takes to prepare these defensive. It takes time. The scenario begin after that preparation time. Therefore you are correct. The scenario designer has to take these preparations into account in designing their scenario.
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pzgndr
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RE: What is the role of infantry?

Post by pzgndr »

ORIGINAL: cbelva
I think we all would like to see this. Separating the infantry from the vehicle was the original intent of the programmer. Unfortunately, he was not able to get the AI to work properly and eventually had to abandon (at least for now) the two counter concept early in development. Will we see it eventually, I don't know. It all really depends on the development of the AI and whether it gets to the point where it can handle two separate counters for an infantry platoon.

You really do need separate units for the dismounts and their carriers so they can perform separate missions. But then again you really need smaller hexes like 250m to do justice to infantry combat with small arms ranges. As it is with 500m hexes and the game keeping the dismounts and carriers together all the time, the role of infantry in the game is problematic and difficult to resolve. I know it was a design decision and all that, but given the playability of PL/PB/AIW and Assault! boardgames at 250m scale it's still annoying you guys went with the 500m scale. And TacOps went with a pixel scale, so you could really get into the weeds if you wanted to with unit SOPs and such. Anyways, we're kinda pigeonholed into a tank/helo/arty maneuver warfare game which works pretty well for 1980's Germany. I'd really like to see more fidelity for the pzgndr's(!) but I guess that will have to wait until someday when you develop a WWII game and then backfit the modern warfare units to it. 2016?? [;)]
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cbelva
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RE: What is the role of infantry?

Post by cbelva »

[left]pzgndr, I don't disagree with you. I argued for an expanded dismount roll even with the current limitations. The compromise at the time was the setting to allow a unit to walk up to 9 hexes to its final obj. Not perfect, but better than nothing. As a brigade asst operations officer there were times where we ordered mech inf to dismount, leave their vehicles behind and walk to their obj. That did not happen a lot, but it did happen occasionally. Normally the decision as to what to do with the carriers was left to the lower level commander.[/left][left] [/left][left]When we go to WWII our plans are to go to a 250m size hex. WWII was more of infantry combat than the modern battlefield. At that time Rob might have to revisit splitting the carriers from the infantry once again. I don't want to tie him to that--I only am thinking out loud. He is good, but there are limits as to what you can do. We will just have to wait and see.[/left]
Charles Belva
On Target Simulations LLC
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