Soviet Gridlock:Dumb AI, Bug or Bad Play

The new Cold War turned hot wargame from On Target Simulations, now expanded with the Player's Edition! Choose the NATO or Soviet forces in one of many scenarios or two linked campaigns. No effort was spared to model modern warfare realistically, including armor, infantry, helicopters, air support, artillery, electronic warfare, chemical and nuclear weapons. An innovative new asynchronous turn order means that OODA loops and various effects on C3 are accurately modeled as never before.

Moderators: WildCatNL, cbelva, IronManBeta, CapnDarwin, IronMikeGolf, Mad Russian

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wadortch
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Soviet Gridlock:Dumb AI, Bug or Bad Play

Post by wadortch »

Hello gamers.

I have been playing RS for months now and recently updated the game with 2.06.

Am quite frustrated with instances of Soviet gridlock, screenshot of the most recent example attached.

Note the big stack of Soviet Units at the top right of the screen. The game (vs a human opponent) has just started. All the units in the stack are under hasty move orders which were issued before the game began and have had no change in orders.

Now, not only do the units sit there for the entire 29 minutes of turn resolution (and take 6 KIA from an artillery strike) but two more units move into the stack by the end of the turn resolution phase!

What is up here? It seems ridiculous that I would have to issue time delay orders for all these units, and that the highly touted AI let's this sort of thing occur. Or is this possibly a bug?

Any insights into how to deal with this game breaking scene?



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Walt
Alchenar
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RE: Soviet Gridlock:Dumb AI, Bug or Bad Play

Post by Alchenar »

I would guess maybe stacking that many units into one hex broke something in the code for congestion?
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wodin
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RE: Soviet Gridlock:Dumb AI, Bug or Bad Play

Post by wodin »

Hmm are you playing the actual scenario for head to head play or one which was designed for play against an AI? Just with you saying all orders where set at the start of the scenario..

Each scenario has three versions.
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Mad Russian
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RE: Soviet Gridlock:Dumb AI, Bug or Bad Play

Post by Mad Russian »

ORIGINAL: wadortch

Am quite frustrated with instances of Soviet gridlock, screenshot of the most recent example attached.

You can try to force the camel through the eye of the needle. If you order them all to move through a single place at the same time you will create a road block. Just in real life. If you have played FPC much at all you will know that to be true. That part of the game has not changed.
Note the big stack of Soviet Units at the top right of the screen. The game (vs a human opponent) has just started. All the units in the stack are under hasty move orders which were issued before the game began and have had no change in orders.

That big stack looks like a bug. Do you have a save game?


Now, not only do the units sit there for the entire 29 minutes of turn resolution (and take 6 KIA from an artillery strike) but two more units move into the stack by the end of the turn resolution phase!

What is up here? It seems ridiculous that I would have to issue time delay orders for all these units, and that the highly touted AI let's this sort of thing occur. Or is this possibly a bug?

Any insights into how to deal with this game breaking scene?

First, you are asking for a tank load of trouble when you make big stacks in FPC for several reasons.
1. Any fire coming into the location has lots of targets and increases your chances to take losses.
2. Movement orders may cause traffic jams.
3. Any fire on the location will cause disruption and readiness costs to everyone in there.

Yeah I can see why you would think it would ridiculous to have to time your movements. I mean what you are describing here is that you lined all your units up at the start line and told them all to go at the same time. Just like a marathon. And just like at a marathon everybody got all jammed together. Think about that.

What the highly touted AI did was penalize for doing the marathon movement. Which is exactly what it was designed to do. You as the player can do pretty much whatever you like with the game. Tell it to do whatever you want. In most cases it will use a common sense approach to implementing your orders. Which is what it seems to have done here.

Good Hunting.

MR
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Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
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cbelva
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RE: Soviet Gridlock:Dumb AI, Bug or Bad Play

Post by cbelva »

Can you post the saved game so that we can look at this. I have some ideas as to what is happening here, but would like to look at the situation in the game before commenting.
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wadortch
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RE: Soviet Gridlock:Dumb AI, Bug or Bad Play

Post by wadortch »

Hello MR and thanks for the reply!

I have the game file and would be happy to send it--via email to you as it is too large to attach to this post?

The units in the big stack were arranged in column at the start of the game and were given hasty orders to occupy hexes in or around Rauschenberg and to assume on call status when they arrived at their destination. So I assume they move ahead in column, meaning units at the rear of the column will not catch up to the lead units unless jammed up by a mine field or obstacle which is not the case here.

I note also that the units in the big stack have assumed On Call orders status which they should NOT be assuming until they arrive at their destination.

I have used timed movement in many games where I expect to encounter chokepoints and such, but remain mystified by the circumstances of the big stack in this one.


Walt
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wadortch
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RE: Soviet Gridlock:Dumb AI, Bug or Bad Play

Post by wadortch »

Hello

I will email you the file.

Thanks for offering to take a look at this!
Walt
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RE: Soviet Gridlock:Dumb AI, Bug or Bad Play

Post by wadortch »

How do I get you the game file? Cannot post it on here (not supported).
Walt
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RE: Soviet Gridlock:Dumb AI, Bug or Bad Play

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Mad Russian
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RE: Soviet Gridlock:Dumb AI, Bug or Bad Play

Post by Mad Russian »

ORIGINAL: wadortch

How do I get you the game file? Cannot post it on here (not supported).

PM sent to you with my email address.

Good Hunting.

MR
The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
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wadortch
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RE: Soviet Gridlock:Dumb AI, Bug or Bad Play

Post by wadortch »

Just sent it to you.
Thanks for checking it out!
Walt
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RE: Soviet Gridlock:Dumb AI, Bug or Bad Play

Post by IronMikeGolf »

ORIGINAL: wadortch

How do I get you the game file? Cannot post it on here (not supported).

You can post a game save file by first compressing it into a zip file. Zips can be uploaded.
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cbelva
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RE: Soviet Gridlock:Dumb AI, Bug or Bad Play

Post by cbelva »

Walt, I have been looking at the saved game file that you sent to Steve. He sent it for me to look at. It does not appear to be a bug. You have a fairly large stack of units, but only 18 subunits total. I believe the stacking limit is 35 subunits per hex. All the units moving in the stack are using "hasty movement". That is an admin type road march that should only be used in real areas when you are not expecting to see an enemy. Hasting movement has a 2 hex standoff range for these units. That means they will not move closer than 2 hexes from an enemy unit. Well, you have that enemy helo sitting 2 hexes away. They are obeying their standoff SOP. I don't see a bug there. During the turn, they eventually cancelled their movement order altogether and went into a screen profile. This behavior seems as intended. Try giving the units deliberate or an assault movement order and see if it makes a different.
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wadortch
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RE: Soviet Gridlock:Dumb AI, Bug or Bad Play

Post by wadortch »

Thank you, will give it a try.

An outstanding example of get right on it support and it is very much appreciated!
Walt
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RE: Soviet Gridlock:Dumb AI, Bug or Bad Play

Post by Alchenar »

ORIGINAL: cbelva

Walt, I have been looking at the saved game file that you sent to Steve. He sent it for me to look at. It does not appear to be a bug. You have a fairly large stack of units, but only 18 subunits total. I believe the stacking limit is 35 subunits per hex. All the units moving in the stack are using "hasty movement". That is an admin type road march that should only be used in real areas when you are not expecting to see an enemy. Hasting movement has a 2 hex standoff range for these units. That means they will not move closer than 2 hexes from an enemy unit. Well, you have that enemy helo sitting 2 hexes away. They are obeying their standoff SOP. I don't see a bug there. During the turn, they eventually cancelled their movement order altogether and went into a screen profile. This behavior seems as intended. Try giving the units deliberate or an assault movement order and see if it makes a different.

The manual indicates that units using hasty move that spot an enemy will reorganise and continue to their destination via deliberate move.
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RE: Soviet Gridlock:Dumb AI, Bug or Bad Play

Post by cbelva »

I will have to check with Capn D about that. I don't believe that is correct and I have never seen that behavior. What I have always seen is the unit stop and then revert to either a screen or hold. I will definitely check that, but believe it to be wrong as to the AI's actual behavior.
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Alchenar
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RE: Soviet Gridlock:Dumb AI, Bug or Bad Play

Post by Alchenar »

ORIGINAL: cbelva

I will have to check with Capn D about that. I don't believe that is correct and I have never seen that behavior. What I have always seen is the unit stop and then revert to either a screen or hold. I will definitely check that, but believe it to be wrong as to the AI's actual behavior.

Oh I don't mind what the game actually does and I can see arguments for both kinds of behaviour, just bringing to your attention that there might be a difference between the manual and the game.

And obviously wadortch can't be blamed for not knowing if behaviour is correct if there's no way for him to know what that is.
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wadortch
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RE: Soviet Gridlock:Dumb AI, Bug or Bad Play

Post by wadortch »

Hi all.

Alchenar is right about what it says in the manual. In my two games (files sent to folks) the stacked units reverted to On Call orders. They did not revert to Deliberate Move orders.

Not trying to make a big deal of this but the game dynamics require the Soviets to move quickly (and on orders issued from the beginning of the game since their reaction time to new orders is so abysmal) and if the hasty move is killed by the presence of an enemy ground or helicopter unit it would be very good to know that for certain.

I see nothing in the manual about a 2 hex standoff default for units under hasty move orders.

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RE: Soviet Gridlock:Dumb AI, Bug or Bad Play

Post by WABAC »

ORIGINAL: wadortch

Hi all.

Alchenar is right about what it says in the manual. In my two games (files sent to folks) the stacked units reverted to On Call orders. They did not revert to Deliberate Move orders.

Not trying to make a big deal of this but the game dynamics require the Soviets to move quickly (and on orders issued from the beginning of the game since their reaction time to new orders is so abysmal) and if the hasty move is killed by the presence of an enemy ground or helicopter unit it would be very good to know that for certain.

I see nothing in the manual about a 2 hex standoff default for units under hasty move orders.


Regardless of the manual, the Soviets assault. They are never hasty. [:D]

If you lay out a track of three way-points that is long enough you can subsequently move the way-points without any cost to orders. I don't know if this is a feature or a player-exploit. [8D]
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RE: Soviet Gridlock:Dumb AI, Bug or Bad Play

Post by Mad Russian »

That's a feature. Once an order to place has been given it doesn't take as much to modify it as it does to start from the beginning.

Think of doing a renovation to a house. Easier to start with the house and make changes than it is to build a new house from the ground up.

Good Hunting.

MR
The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
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