Flashpoint Campaigns - Meta Campaign
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- DoubleDeuce
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Flashpoint Campaigns - Meta Campaign
Since there are a couple FC:RS players here [:D] I figured I would cross post this from another forum I frequent to get some more input.
Basically, I am in the early stages of trying to organize some kind of Meta Campaign using FC:RS to fight out the actual battles. On the other site I was able to scrounge up a couple volunteers, enough so that I am actually playtesting it to see how this might work out and see how much work I am making for myself. I am pretty sure this would be do-able as I have done something similar using Steel Panthers and have begged, borrowed and stolen ideas from many of the other Meta Campaign designers out there, most notably those using Combat Mission and Steel Beasts.
The initial "project" will be in a Team vs AI format, that way the battles can be played solo which are much more quick than pbem. Since I am not sure how many solo vs pbem players are out there the format could change to what would draw the most participation.
Anyone interested in or have comments on this idea . . . yes, no, maybe, sounds like too much work . . . ?
Basically, I am in the early stages of trying to organize some kind of Meta Campaign using FC:RS to fight out the actual battles. On the other site I was able to scrounge up a couple volunteers, enough so that I am actually playtesting it to see how this might work out and see how much work I am making for myself. I am pretty sure this would be do-able as I have done something similar using Steel Panthers and have begged, borrowed and stolen ideas from many of the other Meta Campaign designers out there, most notably those using Combat Mission and Steel Beasts.
The initial "project" will be in a Team vs AI format, that way the battles can be played solo which are much more quick than pbem. Since I am not sure how many solo vs pbem players are out there the format could change to what would draw the most participation.
Anyone interested in or have comments on this idea . . . yes, no, maybe, sounds like too much work . . . ?
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RE: Flashpoint Campaigns - Meta Campaign
(Sorry for the crosspost - two threads popped up at the same time on the same topic)
I'm planning to do this programmatically.
My plan is to create an operational combat framework that uses FC:RS as its tactical combat resolution engine. Players would command V Corps/8th Guards forces on a hex map of the combat area, and when forces moved into contact, a FC:RS save-game file will be generated. Once the combat is concluded or time limit reached, the game is saved, and the operational framework is updated, taking into account losses, terrain modifications, unit positions, logistic expenditures, morale effects, etc, etc, etc. Some out-of-FC:RS combat resolution will be required for tactical combat that both players regard as too tedious to play out in FC, or as inappropriate for that game. Combat map data in its roughest form will be generated by scanning in topo maps, binning the resulting terrain at 500 metre resolution - that data can then have diffs applied to it by any interested community member. Hex grid size will be 15km, time will be tracked in minutes, unit scale will be battalions/regiments with specialized companies, and the implementation language will be C#.
This will accomplish several goals: it will allow for persistent force state and location between battles, will serve as a scenario generator, will allow combat victory to be decoupled from the Victory Point system, will allow players to circumvent the sudden-death nature of scenarios, will create unpredictable combat between heterogeneous combat arms, and provide for persistent terrain effects such as fortification, minefields, blown bridges, nbc contamination, etc etc etc.
The main challenge at the current time is decoding the savegame/scenario file format. Savegame files are binary blobs with a magic number at the beginning and no discernible structure. They may have been deliberately obfuscated; in any case there is no documentation. I will either reverse-engineer them from first principles by creating scenarios with known configurations, or I will have to write a daemon that hooks into the game process and intercepts serialization. Worst-case scenario is I have to write a screenscraper, but that would be a nightmare with localization and Windows font settings issues, so I hope it doesn't come to that.
Anyway, I have a couple of paying projects to work through, and then I'll get cracking on it. If anyone has the actual sav/scn file documentation, or the serialization code itself, that'll dramatically speed this along
I'm planning to do this programmatically.
My plan is to create an operational combat framework that uses FC:RS as its tactical combat resolution engine. Players would command V Corps/8th Guards forces on a hex map of the combat area, and when forces moved into contact, a FC:RS save-game file will be generated. Once the combat is concluded or time limit reached, the game is saved, and the operational framework is updated, taking into account losses, terrain modifications, unit positions, logistic expenditures, morale effects, etc, etc, etc. Some out-of-FC:RS combat resolution will be required for tactical combat that both players regard as too tedious to play out in FC, or as inappropriate for that game. Combat map data in its roughest form will be generated by scanning in topo maps, binning the resulting terrain at 500 metre resolution - that data can then have diffs applied to it by any interested community member. Hex grid size will be 15km, time will be tracked in minutes, unit scale will be battalions/regiments with specialized companies, and the implementation language will be C#.
This will accomplish several goals: it will allow for persistent force state and location between battles, will serve as a scenario generator, will allow combat victory to be decoupled from the Victory Point system, will allow players to circumvent the sudden-death nature of scenarios, will create unpredictable combat between heterogeneous combat arms, and provide for persistent terrain effects such as fortification, minefields, blown bridges, nbc contamination, etc etc etc.
The main challenge at the current time is decoding the savegame/scenario file format. Savegame files are binary blobs with a magic number at the beginning and no discernible structure. They may have been deliberately obfuscated; in any case there is no documentation. I will either reverse-engineer them from first principles by creating scenarios with known configurations, or I will have to write a daemon that hooks into the game process and intercepts serialization. Worst-case scenario is I have to write a screenscraper, but that would be a nightmare with localization and Windows font settings issues, so I hope it doesn't come to that.
Anyway, I have a couple of paying projects to work through, and then I'll get cracking on it. If anyone has the actual sav/scn file documentation, or the serialization code itself, that'll dramatically speed this along
- DoubleDeuce
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RE: Flashpoint Campaigns - Meta Campaign
Wouldn't access to the savegame information jeopardize security in pbem games? I mean, if you have the ability to extract that information directly from that file, some might be concerned that game security is no longer there. You might be the only one with that "access" so its not like others would have it but the capability to get to it is still there.
RE: Flashpoint Campaigns - Meta Campaign
DD, sorry been busy and not been paying attention to the forums lately, I have been working on something based around a conflict between 2 nations on a small island with each side being supplied by either NATO or WP, this was going to be a major piece of work and take some time to release, but happy to put heads together to see what can be workable.
Drop me a PM and I'll send you a zip with the key documents (still WIP but you'll see the idea I was working on)
Drop me a PM and I'll send you a zip with the key documents (still WIP but you'll see the idea I was working on)
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- Erik Rutins
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RE: Flashpoint Campaigns - Meta Campaign
I'd be interested in participating. [8D]
Erik Rutins
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CEO, Matrix Games LLC
For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/
Freedom is not Free.
RE: Flashpoint Campaigns - Meta Campaign
I'd give it a whirl too.
- DoubleDeuce
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RE: Flashpoint Campaigns - Meta Campaign
Kind of playtesting this idea right now with 3 victims . . . err I mean volunteers. [:D]
Anyway, here is the starting situation map. Elements of 3rd Squadron, 175th Armored Cavalry Regiment (3 Troops made up of M113's and M551 Sheridans) are defending the Streu River valley against the Soviet 5th Motorized Rifle Regiment (BTR). Individual battles on the 1st day involve each of the US Troops defending the 3 main river crossings against Motorized Rifle Battalions (the Soviet Tank Battalion is in reserve the 1st day).
Players are fighting custom scenario's against the FC:RS AI.
Anyway, here is the starting situation map. Elements of 3rd Squadron, 175th Armored Cavalry Regiment (3 Troops made up of M113's and M551 Sheridans) are defending the Streu River valley against the Soviet 5th Motorized Rifle Regiment (BTR). Individual battles on the 1st day involve each of the US Troops defending the 3 main river crossings against Motorized Rifle Battalions (the Soviet Tank Battalion is in reserve the 1st day).
Players are fighting custom scenario's against the FC:RS AI.
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RE: Flashpoint Campaigns - Meta Campaign
This looks interesting indeed! I'd be a willing victim.
There's a simple answer to every complex question - and it's wrong.
-Umberto Eco
-Umberto Eco
RE: Flashpoint Campaigns - Meta Campaign
ORIGINAL: Double Deuce
Kind of playtesting this idea right now with 3 victims . . . err I mean volunteers. [:D]
Anyway, here is the starting situation map.
Double Deuce,
I am interested to understand if there's anything from a map/terrain perspective that would help with these "coop" battles, both during planning, battle and perhaps afterwards.
William
William
On Target Simulations LLC
On Target Simulations LLC
- DoubleDeuce
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RE: Flashpoint Campaigns - Meta Campaign
Hmm, hadn't really thought about it. I just grabbed that one to put things in visual perspective for people who might be interested. I do see that your planning maps should come in really handy as I can convey the situation more clearly to the players with them. I just need work on my graphic overlay skills. [:D]ORIGINAL: W1ll14m
I am interested to understand if there's anything from a map/terrain perspective that would help with these "coop" battles, both during planning, battle and perhaps afterwards.
- DoubleDeuce
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RE: Flashpoint Campaigns - Meta Campaign
I think I need to go pilfer some spreadsheet layouts for tracking unit OOBs. What I have thrown together so far is totally inadequate. [:(]
- DoubleDeuce
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RE: Flashpoint Campaigns - Meta Campaign
Yeah, I am pretty sure this needs to be a Team vs AI format for any playtesting. It's the only way I can presently handle the OOB changes and updates given my limited spreadsheet skills.
Next, question is, should the "Team" be Soviet, US, British or German? The situation will be fictional but will have a written out background.
Next, question is, should the "Team" be Soviet, US, British or German? The situation will be fictional but will have a written out background.
RE: Flashpoint Campaigns - Meta Campaign
ORIGINAL: Double Deuce
Next, question is, should the "Team" be Soviet, US, British or German? The situation will be fictional but will have a written out background.
ARRC - multi-national 'Allied Rapid Reaction Corp', although iirc this was a early 90's formation you could model a early forerunner formation
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RE: Flashpoint Campaigns - Meta Campaign
A couple of years ago I did something like this but using the boardgame 'Air & Armor' as the strategic backdrop. Air+Armor uses 2hr turns, 1 hex: 1 mile, Company level units.
The original Air+Armor game was in US Vth Corps area but someone had done a map for the Hanover area at 1 hex: 1 mile for another game called 'Tac Air', so I put together a Campaign for that. This was for Brits and Germans vs 3rd Shock.
The game went well and I also produced Campaign guide for use with miniatures and FFOT3 rules that use platoon level stands and 1":100m scale.
The Air+Armor campaign was written up at:
http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@@.1dcdfd59/968
Campaign play started at:
http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@@.1dcdfd59/933
The miniatures campaign is here:
http://1drv.ms/1CG9giu
The original Air+Armor game was in US Vth Corps area but someone had done a map for the Hanover area at 1 hex: 1 mile for another game called 'Tac Air', so I put together a Campaign for that. This was for Brits and Germans vs 3rd Shock.
The game went well and I also produced Campaign guide for use with miniatures and FFOT3 rules that use platoon level stands and 1":100m scale.
The Air+Armor campaign was written up at:
http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@@.1dcdfd59/968
Campaign play started at:
http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@@.1dcdfd59/933
The miniatures campaign is here:
http://1drv.ms/1CG9giu
Somerset, Uk
- DoubleDeuce
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RE: Flashpoint Campaigns - Meta Campaign
Playtesters are now getting Mission #2.
All 3 Cavalry Troops were pushed back away from the river. Was interesting to see how each commander played their mission differently, some trading space to preserve their force, others trying to hang onto the river crossings. Overall, personnel losses were acceptable and during the night replacement vehicles and personnel were rushed to front. For damaged vehicles, the mechanics worked all night getting everything that could be fixed, repaired and back into line. Two of the three Troops are back at full strength with he third one not too bad off.
Here is the start of Mission #2 situation map. The Soviet 5th Motorized Rifle Regiment (BTR) has crossed the Streu River at multiple points and is heading west. The 175th has been able to scrounge some helicopters and artillery to help out but the Troops needs to block all avenues of advance to west. If anyone fails, Mission 3 will see one or more of the units getting hit in the flank as well as the front.
AND, unlike the previous days operation, Soviet 5th Tank Battalion is no longer in reserve.
All 3 Cavalry Troops were pushed back away from the river. Was interesting to see how each commander played their mission differently, some trading space to preserve their force, others trying to hang onto the river crossings. Overall, personnel losses were acceptable and during the night replacement vehicles and personnel were rushed to front. For damaged vehicles, the mechanics worked all night getting everything that could be fixed, repaired and back into line. Two of the three Troops are back at full strength with he third one not too bad off.
Here is the start of Mission #2 situation map. The Soviet 5th Motorized Rifle Regiment (BTR) has crossed the Streu River at multiple points and is heading west. The 175th has been able to scrounge some helicopters and artillery to help out but the Troops needs to block all avenues of advance to west. If anyone fails, Mission 3 will see one or more of the units getting hit in the flank as well as the front.
AND, unlike the previous days operation, Soviet 5th Tank Battalion is no longer in reserve.
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- DoubleDeuce
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RE: Flashpoint Campaigns - Meta Campaign
Thanks battlerbritain. Been too busy to check this until now. Hope you won't mind if I steal some ideas. [;)]ORIGINAL: battlerbritain
A couple of years ago I did something like this but using the boardgame 'Air & Armor' as the strategic backdrop. Air+Armor uses 2hr turns, 1 hex: 1 mile, Company level units.
- DoubleDeuce
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RE: Flashpoint Campaigns - Meta Campaign
One thing I found, due to the small unit size for each commander and all 3 units sharing the same map, there is not a lot of room for maneuver. However, the main goal of the playtest is to work out the campaign level processes like tracking casualties, replacements and such. I will be releasing the missions once I clean up the US briefings and check a few things BUT they are intended to only be played from the US side as the Soviet briefings are empty since that side is played by the AI in this format.
- DoubleDeuce
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RE: Flashpoint Campaigns - Meta Campaign
For anyone interested in having a go at the playtest missions for the Flashpoint Campaigns – Meta Campaign you can download the 1st set of scenarios on my blog at Flashpoint Campaigns – Meta Campaign – 1st Round Missions.
As I noted in my blog they are very small and are NOT balanced. They should only be played from the US side as there is no briefing text for the Soviets. I would also recommend playing with all "Game Play options" unchecked. [;)]
As I noted in my blog they are very small and are NOT balanced. They should only be played from the US side as there is no briefing text for the Soviets. I would also recommend playing with all "Game Play options" unchecked. [;)]
RE: Flashpoint Campaigns - Meta Campaign
ORIGINAL: Double Deuce
One thing I found, due to the small unit size for each commander and all 3 units sharing the same map, there is not a lot of room for maneuver. However, the main goal of the playtest is to work out the campaign level processes like tracking casualties, replacements and such. I will be releasing the missions once I clean up the US briefings and check a few things BUT they are intended to only be played from the US side as the Soviet briefings are empty since that side is played by the AI in this format.
Double Deuce, thanks for reporting back these experiences. IIRC, you already mentioned map space at the Grogheads forum before you started.
What kind of map size would give you a better experience? (For reference, the current Red Storm maps are 20km x 15km).
I really like the meta-campaign idea (playing co-op with other commanders), and with the planned map locations for Southern Storm I see an opportunity to produce two "extra large" maps at almost no extra effort.
In case you'd like to try a larger map anytime soon, Plodder's Berlin is 24x15km, WABAC's Depuy 1962 is 20x27km and my NTC Ft Irwin Central Corridor is 40x36km. All are available from the 3rd Party Maps folder on the OTS web site here.
William
William
On Target Simulations LLC
On Target Simulations LLC
- DoubleDeuce
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RE: Flashpoint Campaigns - Meta Campaign
William, the map size in this case was a limitation I kind of factored in since it is a playtest, to test procedures ad concept and was not really worried about maneuver space. 20km x 15km is large enough really, if we had multiple maps that were adjacent, like paper mapsheets, that could cover a single, large area for the campaign to take place in. This would allow for a more continuous flow of the overall battle across a much larger area, if that makes sense.
My intent is to have the results/actions of team members affect each other in later missions, where say one unit gets pushed back and the others on the flanks hold. That allows for the "holding units" to be flanked by enemy forces continuing the attack (opening a hole in the front lines) or gives the friendly's an opportunity to counterattack into the enemy's flank in followup missions.
I have looked at trying using the NTC Ft Irwin Central Corridor map but not sure my laptop could handle that or those with lower end machines (no evidence of this just thinking out loud). That and I really started working this concept before that map was available so just wet with what I had written up.
I am mainly releasing the completed missions just for people to play around with who might like smaller battles and/or might have limited time to play, what with the holidays coming up.
My intent is to have the results/actions of team members affect each other in later missions, where say one unit gets pushed back and the others on the flanks hold. That allows for the "holding units" to be flanked by enemy forces continuing the attack (opening a hole in the front lines) or gives the friendly's an opportunity to counterattack into the enemy's flank in followup missions.
I have looked at trying using the NTC Ft Irwin Central Corridor map but not sure my laptop could handle that or those with lower end machines (no evidence of this just thinking out loud). That and I really started working this concept before that map was available so just wet with what I had written up.
I am mainly releasing the completed missions just for people to play around with who might like smaller battles and/or might have limited time to play, what with the holidays coming up.