A Time To Dance

[jenrick]

For this scenario in particular, dropping the correct bridges makes all the difference. The Soviets will attack primarily at the three bridges located to the north of Bad Neustadt. You can drop the bridge at the south side of Bad Neustadt on the start of the game with a recon unit placed there in setup, that limits the Soviet axis of advance to one of the other three bridges. While there are two more bridge, one at Oberstreu and one to the West of Bad Neustadt these are too far out of the way for the Soviet plan. They want to roll straight through Bad Neustadt not detour around the German country side.

Now which bridge to drop next, and how to have your units survive long enough to do it is the important question. The bridge in Heustreu is probably going to be the last bridge the Soviets get to on their primary axis of advance. They have minefields and abatis to cross to get there, and the terrain is urban favoring the defender. This bridge is probably the last one to worry about.

The bridge located on the east side of Bad Neustadt and the bridge immediately north of that one going to be to the ones the Soviets go for. The good news is that you can over watch the approaches to both bridges from the same chunk of terrain, the tree line beginning at 1415 and running NE. Having your Bradley platoon post up in a HOLD stance on this tree line will let them work over any approaching vehicles with their cannons and missiles. The normal maneuver scheme for the WP is to lead with the recon elements which the Bradley can easily handle.

So which bridge do you blow with your one order on T1? The one on the east side of Bad Neustadt. You will be receiving reinforcements consisting of mech infantry among other things. Bad Neustadts urban terrain is infantry terrain. Putting your mech inf company in Hold in Bad Neustadts will more then adequately address any attempt by the WP to force a crossing via bridge building or amphibious vehicles.

The bridge to the NE of Bad Neustadts will then be the primary axis of approach for the WP. This is both good and bad news. There is no terrain handy for a unit to hole up in while trying to blow the bridge. On the other hand the approach to the bridge and bridgehead on the NATO side is a killing field. The first order of business is to get a heavy blocking force into position to prevent the WP from establishing a bridgehead with their lighter recon elements. A M1A1 platoon in Hold located in the tree line works nicely.

Hex 1614 also provides the opportunity for overwatch of the crossing located in Heustreu just in case. However any of the three wooded hexes will work. The terrain provides very good cover, and beautiful arcs of fire. Get tanks into all three as soon as possible in Hold, and let them go to work. Some of your tanks will die, expect it. However the value of all of your tanks is only ~3300. If you don't stop the WP from getting across the river, they will else make that up in VP's. You can afford to loose all your tanks IF you can hold all the VP locations.

Use the mech infantry company you get to fortify Bad Neustadts to prevent a bridging attempt, or a crossing by amphibious units. All of your tanks goes to the tree line. If possible drop smoke in the elevation 1 hexes in front of the tree line. The WP tanks can't engage you through it, but you can certainly engage them.

Done correctly you will stop the WP cold with only moderate losses, leading to a tactical success. Be aggressive about getting into the tree line to stop the Soviets as soon as possible so they can't mass at close range.

-Jenrick

[CiniKo]

Here my screens,

but how to win this scenario?! Game always stops with advice 70%...bla..bla..[X(][X(][X(]

LuCa

anw.very nice scenario!

[Enigma6584]

Why is a technical question about how the game works in an AAR thread?

[HowieWowie]

The first go at this scenario resulted in a crushing defeat for NATO. Then I read this thread and the bridge blowing tactic sounded like a way to stem the flow of the Red forces across the river. Its easy to blow the bridge at Bad Neusdat. I've tried a handful of times to blow the other bridges. I've never been able to blow more than the one bridge at Bad Neusdat. Looking at this thread it would seem that there have been a few updates since the earlier posts a year ago. I'm guessing something might have changed to make this more difficult than it already was. Has anyone succeeded in blowing 3 bridges with 2.06??

[Koesj]

Yeah this scenario seems way harder now for NATO. Was EW hindrance ever this asymmetrical too?

e: blowing the bridges outside the one in Bad Neustadt you can put a starting unit right next to is totally impossible. By 5am (turn 1 + half an hour prep time) there's battalions of tanks on the other side already.

e2: oh... there are two versions of the scenario [:o]

[HowieWowie]

Hey Koesj I didn't realize there were two versions! I'll take a look later and see if I can blow more than one bridge as the original poster was able to do. Otherwise the Reds steamroller over Nato.

[Tim James]

The second version of the scenario is the one you should play as Soviets. In that one, all the bridges are magically blown before the scenario begins!

If anyone has any NATO tips for this with the new aggressive AI, I'm very curious. I feel like there might be a learning experience here, but it's beyond me right now. Maybe just concentrate on the 3000 VP hex west of Bad Neustadt?

[budd]

yea its a lot harder as nato now. I played it 7 times now, i have only blown the one bridge you start on, tried doing the others, you just don't make it and just lose your units. I just tried moving around and going for the 3000 Vp but got killed by arty and all the t-80U's. Bringing your abrahams around to the 3000 VP is hard to coordinate and takes a bit to get in a good position. I don't even try for the other bridges now. it's flat out murder, especially with limited orders. I would be interested in anybody's strategy for this scenario under 2.06, i've only managed various levels of defeat[;)]

[CapnDarwin]

I take down two bridges in Bad Neustadt(BN) (east first, then move the unit to blow the south bridge). I get my initial forces on the ridgeline overlooking the road from Heustreu to BN. Try to kill as many bad guys as I can and fill in with new forces as they arrive. I get armour on the ridge and mech scout pressing into Heustreu. Use the Mortar to smoke the ridge and scouts and get extra cover to your forces. I start taking that third and remaining wave of reinforcements down St2292 and get into BN to hold it the best I can and keep forces bottled up in the valley pocket. With any luck the north attack gets blunted enough to allow you to counter attack into the 2 VPs at H and at the valley bridge. Having good weather helps. Rain is a killer and you will want to rethink the fight if visibility is poor. Remember to keep you HQs on the move too. The Soviets have some heavy arty in tow.

[budd]

did you run that plan under 2.07? That plan could work IF you get that second bridge, which to this point i have not been able to do. I start a unit on the bridge in BN and that one blows just fine. I move a unit hasty to the second BN bridge and give the order to blow, but between giving the order and the next action time[usually around 30 minutes, which isn't unreasonable given demo prep time] the enemy takes me out every time, and then the ridge isn't as crucial. On limited orders you usually get 1 order,i've got 2 orders once, so your second turn your giving the blow bridge order and thats it. By that time your order cycle is increasing upwards and there inside your loop[they spend the whole game inside your loop].I tried a pretty close variation of that plan early on. You can do some damage from the ridge but if that second bridge is intact they get around you, damn AI [:D] .... I will try again...and again.

[HowieWowie]

Budd that's exactly the experience I had. I'm glad it wasn't me. As a new player when I read the OP's AAR I thought holly cow I really suck! There has obviously been some significant changes since the initial release of the game. I'd say that the scenario needs some tweaking. Which then makes me wonder about the other scenarios and how the changes have affected their balance?

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: **budd**

did you run that plan under 2.07? That plan could work IF you get that second bridge, which to this point i have not been able to do. I start a unit on the bridge in BN and that one blows just fine. I move a unit hasty to the second BN bridge and give the order to blow, but between giving the order and the next action time[usually around 30 minutes, which isn't unreasonable given demo prep time] the enemy takes me out every time, and then the ridge isn't as crucial. On limited orders you usually get 1 order,i've got 2 orders once, so your second turn your giving the blow bridge order and thats it. By that time your order cycle is increasing upwards and there inside your loop[they spend the whole game inside your loop].I tried a pretty close variation of that plan early on. You can do some damage from the ridge but if that second bridge is intact they get around you, damn AI [:D] .... I will try again...and again.

Using Limited Orders in A Time To Dance can make you lose both your hair and sleep at night...[X(] [>:]

Good Hunting.

MR

[budd]

ORIGINAL: HowieWowie

Budd that's exactly the experience I had. I'm glad it wasn't me. As a new player when I read the OP's AAR I thought holly cow I really suck! There has obviously been some significant changes since the initial release of the game. I'd say that the scenario needs some tweaking. Which then makes me wonder about the other scenarios and how the changes have affected their balance?

you playing with limited orders? I have tried 8 times and have yet to get a second bridge. The reds will pay....o yes they'll pay...I have a few more plans to try before i come back and whine about it again[;)]

[genehaynes]

Hooray!! Just got a marginal victory. Played as NATO, limited rules, NS_AS "A Time to Dance". Here's what I did (One thing was a little "gamey" thoough):

1. First I placed 2 Humvees at the southern most bridge. One to blow that bridge. One moves WEST, across the Western most bridge to the SOUTHERN side of the river. On the next turn I ordered him to blow the western bridge. Those are the only bridges I attempted to blow. I gave up on trying any of the eastern bridges because even if you get to them on the initial turn, they have sit there for the rest of that turn plus 30min (The time it takes to blow a bridge without comming under fire) of the next turn. By that time they're usually destroyed.
2. I placed one Humvee on the southern side of the river on hex 1720. I order him to move hasty to hex 1526. This is the slightly "gamey" part....I plan to keep the 2 Humvees I now have on the southern side of the river out of sight unitl late in the game (i.e. When most, if not all of the Soviet forces are commited to capturing the victory hexes on the northern side of the river. When I'm confident it's ok to move from cover I use the HUmvees to capture both 1500pt victory hexes at 2025 and 2320. If the soviets try to re-capture these victory locations they will have to weaken their forces on the northern side of the river, which makes it much easier for me to re-capture those hexes.
3. Accept the fact that you're probably going to have to re-captue all of the victory locations on the northern side of the river. At least I couldn't figure out how to stop the Soviets from crossing the river and capturing most, if not all of the victory locations. The key is to make to Soviets pay dearly for those locations. At setup, I decided to place the HQ unit ( 4 Bradleys w/ TOW missles) in the woods at hex 1414 with a Hold order. I may be wrong, but it seems the Bradleys are more accurate with their ATGM's when in Hold stance vs Screen. In my small win this unit took out about 8 bad guys before it was destroyed. Also, I followed two good pieces of advice from this thread: 1. Try to keep the Soviets at long range. This is eaiser on the west side because it's more open than the east (woods / ridges ). 2. Use your only artillery asset (the Mortor unit) to place smoke either directly on your units, or between you and the enemy. The Soviets don't have thermal sights, so they can't see thru smoke.
5. Finally, and probably the biggest reason I squeeked out a win was lady luck. During the first couple of turns the weather was heavy rain, visibility 2000m. Due to my Thermal sights I was able to destroy a lot of units with virtually no retrun fire (except their Artillery).

Considering the fact that NATO is at quite a disadvantage: Outnumbered, Initial order limitation, way more Soviet artillery, I still felt good about finally winning one. SO the score is...Me 1, Soviets about 12 or 13!!

[cbelva]

I learned something while in the army - good commanders even use "gamey" tactics to win in real life. Whether it was during a CPX, Reforager, or a deployment to the NTC; my commanders were always employing what some would call gamey tactics. War is not a fair fight.In one Reforcer my squadron commander actually used a tactic similar to you sending your scouts across the river to the western side. He would have been rebuked if he had been caught, but he didn't care. Winning was all he cared about. Which is what is important in war. I also served under a brigade commander who had the reputation of being able to defeat the OPOR at the NTC. He did it by cheating. I went thru two NTC rotations with him. He out performed the OPOR each time - by using "gamey" tactics.. So I tend to look at gamey tactics differently. It is one thing to abuse the rules for an advantage. It is something else to use unorthordox and unexpected tactics. I have won A Time to Dance many time and I unapologetically use "gamey" tactics.

Don't think that this doesn't happen in real wars.

Oh, congratulations on finally beating A Time to Dance!

[budd]

hey man..... a win is a win doing that scenario, good job. too bad that replay feature isnt in yet would of liked to see someone win[:D]

[IronMikeGolf]

So, is this our Kobayashi Maru?

[Max 86]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that struggles with this game. I am wondering if the scenarios are balanced after the updates. It seems to me playing the NATO side in the smaller scenarios it's hard to get anything more than a marginal victory and that's after suffering a few beatings. Still a great game but limited orders is really a buzz kill.

[budd]

My casualties as nato are definitely up. I'm having a lot of trouble with the screen command and orders delay. I give an order to my units in screen mode to move and usually the enemy will close and kill or damage them before they move..while in screen mode, while they wait for there next action time. I'll have to reserve judgement as i have just been beating my head against a time to dance for days and i've finally moved on.

[Max 86]

I have seen that too with the screen command. It seems that the rules for a screening unit should be - if enemy in sight and within the screen range, the unit should be moving within five minutes or so.