How to take Greece?

[Centuur]

What about the USSR's abilities to gobble up the Middle East oil fields? The moment the Japanese commit Yamamoto to the war in China, the USSR can grab Persia and later Iraq before Germany is capable to break the pact...

The USSR's position can be made quite strong by playing the Soviets without regards to US entry (with the exception being that the last chit shouldn't be removed...). Especially when the Axis is doing well, the Soviets should be doing well to, to compensate...

[paulderynck]

Since the 2008 Errata (see below), I have found the Russians don't get much out of Persia (except they need it to get at Iraq). This is because the CW can no longer transport the oil out of Persia while Russia is neutral, combined with the limit on saving while neutral. They might get some re-org value out of the extra oil of the two on the coast of the Persian Gulf, but it isn't long before they have the max saved there and are wasting 2 per turn.

Meanwhile, the CW loses one per turn.

Transporting Resources (WiF 13.6.1)
Apart from the Japan-US agreement, you may only transport your own resources and, if you are active, resources for other active major powers on your side.

[brian brian]

Against a good Japanese player, I don't think it is very wise at all for the Russians to declare war on Persia. The exception is when the Euro-Axis is entangled in the Middle East in 1941. But even then, the Russians can end up with more on their hands than they wish.

[Dabrion]

Well, RU has to build rails to get the oil to factories.. I figure that is not in MWiF?

JP just has to keep some wp units, 4x CP the 4mover TRS in the Canton area (not unusual). If you see the build up you ferry a CP to Mog and reog with the TRS, so he can go to the Persian Gulf next impulse. Any impulse after that you are set for intervention within 2 impulses. RU can circumvent that by using Paras on the coastal hexes, without them they cannot make it to the oil in 2 impulses.

Keeping some wp units + lift in the Canton area is usually enough to cast some doubt on the RU player. Bringing a HQ to Persia is ill advised.. You are getting some turns worth of oil until evicted usually. Which is fine! Any larger operation will be stuck there and unsustainable once at war with CW.

[paulderynck]

Not included in MWiF and awfully expensive in WiF given the Russian PM early on.

Agree on the JP response. They can even land on the oil the impulse after the USSR DoW, but do have to DoW the USSR themselves to keep the oil longer than the turn of conquest.

[Joseignacio]

Finally it seems I was not at the required level. I prefer to believe that my rolls weren't. I had built quite a few IT FTRs and navs and one GE (15 range) nav to fuck the CW fleet if they tried to support Greece and I wasn't able to find them or I did but with lots of surprise on their side, for like 7 impulses along almost 2 turns. This allowed 4 CW corps get in and align Yugo plus American chit roll for supporting ( 3 or 4) successful and american chit loss roll (5) successful for them too.

Now I need to crush Yugo, it's a very minor setback itself, but combined with the GR situation and the need of planes in both scenarios, means that the doubt attack USSR in 41 or in 42, most probably will be solved for 42...

[Extraneous]

composer99 you knew I would check your math. I have different totals for SCENARIO 2.



All turns will be abbreviated by last two numbers of the year followed by the first character of each month for the bi-monthly turn (1941 January/February turn becomes 41JF).

For the purpose of crunching numbers let's assume 3 scenarios where:
- 39SO Set up ~ USSR sets up to claim Bessarabia.
- The USSR will take no actions in Middle East.
- The oil rule will not be in effect.
- 41MJ Germany will DoW the USSR.

The USSR begins with the following lending & production:
- 5 resources & 2 oil traded to Germany for 2BP.
- 22 resources & oil for production.
- 22 Blue factories
- 7 Red factories


SCENARIO 1 - "The USSR claims Bessarabia"
39SO 4th impulse (2nd Allied impulse) ~ The USSR claims Bessarabia. Germany accepts the claim and the Hungarian & Bulgarian claims. The USSR reduces the number of resources it must supply Germany by 1.
The USSR has the following resources for lending & production:
- 4 resource & 2 oil traded to Germany for 2 BP.
- 23 resources & oil for production.

USSR production:
39SO ~ 23 res+oil at 0.25 PM = 5.75 BP (rounded up to 6) + 2 BP from Ge = 8 BP
39ND ~ 23 res+oil at 0.25 PM = 5.75 BP (rounded up to 6) + 2 BP from Ge = 8 BP
40JF ~ 23 res+oil at 0.5 PM = 11.5 BP (rounded up to 12) + 2 BP from Ge = 14 BP
40MA ~ 23 res+oil at 0.5 PM = 11.5 BP (rounded up to 12) + 2 BP from Ge = 14 BP
40MJ ~ 23 res+oil at 0.5 PM = 11.5 BP (rounded up to 12) + 2 BP from Ge = 14 BP
Total production = 58 BP

40JA ~ USSR demands Finnish borderlands. Germany accepts the claim. The USSR reduces the number of resources it must supply Germany by 1.
The USSR has the following resources for lending & production:
- 3 resource & 2 oil traded to Germany for 2 BP.
- 24 resources & oil for production.

40JA ~ 24 res+oil at 0.5 PM = 12BP + 2 BP from Ge = 14 BP
40SO ~ 24 res+oil at 0.5 PM = 12BP + 2 BP from Ge = 14 BP
40ND ~ 24 res+oil at 0.5 PM = 12BP + 2 BP from Ge = 14 BP
Total production = 42BP

41JF ~ Germany aligns Hungary and Bulgaria in separate impulses. The USSR reduces the number of resources it must supply Germany by 2.
The USSR has the following resources for lending & production:
- 3 resource & 2 oil traded to Germany for 2 BP.
- 24 resources & oil for production.

41JF ~ 26 res+oil at 0.5 PM = 13 BP + 2 BP from Ge = 15 BP
41MA ~ 26 res+oil at 0.5 PM = 13 BP + 2 BP from Ge = 15 BP
Total production = 30BP

SCENARIO 1 Total production = 130 BP


SCENARIO 2 - "The Yugoslavia gambit"
39SO 3rd impulse (2nd Axis impulse) ~ Germany DoW's Yugoslavia and aligns Rumania before The USSR claims Bessarabia. The USSR reduces the number of resources it must supply Germany by 1.
39SO 5th impulse (3rd Axis impulse) ~ Germany aligns Hungary in to get around the Yugoslav mountain defense. The USSR reduces the number of resources it must supply Germany by 1.

39SO ~ The USSR has the following resources for lending & production:
- 3 resource & 2 oil traded to Germany for 2 BP.
- 25 resources & oil for production.
USSR production:
39SO ~ 25 res+oil at 0.25 PM = 6.25 BP (rounded down to 6) + 2 BP from Ge = 8 BP
39ND ~ 25 res+oil at 0.25 PM = 6.25 BP (rounded down to 6) + 2 BP from Ge = 8 BP
40JF ~ 25 res+oil at 0.5 PM = 12.5 BP (rounded up to 13) + 2 BP from Ge = 15 BP
40MA ~ 25 res+oil at 0.5 PM = 12.5 BP (rounded up to 13) + 2 BP from Ge = 15 BP
40MJ ~ 25 res+oil at 0.5 PM = 12.5 BP (rounded up to 13) + 2 BP from Ge = 15 BP
Total production = 61 BP

40JA ~ USSR demands Finnish borderlands. Germany accepts the claim. The USSR reduces the number of resources it must supply Germany by 1.
40JA ~ The USSR has the following resources for lending & production:
- 2 resource & 2 oil traded to Germany for 2 BP.
- 26 resources & oil for production.
40JA ~ 25 res+oil at 0.5 PM = 12.5 BP (rounded up to 13) + 2 BP from Ge = 15 BP
40SO ~ 25 res+oil at 0.5 PM = 12.5 BP (rounded up to 13) + 2 BP from Ge = 15 BP
40ND ~ 25 res+oil at 0.5 PM = 12.5 BP (rounded up to 13) + 2 BP from Ge = 15 BP
Total production = 45BP

41JF ~ Germany aligns Bulgaria.The USSR reduces the number of resources it must supply Germany by 1.
41JF ~ The USSR has the following resources for lending & production:
- 1 resource & 2 oil traded to Germany for 2 BP.
- 27 resources & oil for production.
41JF ~ 27 res+oil at 0.5 PM = 13.5 BP (rounded up to 14) + 2 BP from Ge = 16 BP
41MA ~ 27 res+oil at 0.5 PM = 13.5 BP (rounded up to 14) + 2 BP from Ge = 16 BP

Total production = 32 BP

SCENARIO 2 Total production = 138 BP


SCENARIO 3 - "The Axis aligns Yugoslavia"
39SO 4th impulse (2nd Allied impulse) ~ The USSR claims Bessarabia. Germany accepts the claim The USSR reduces the number of resources it must supply Germany by 1.
39SO 5th impulse (3rd Axis impulse) ~ Germany denies the Hungarian & Bulgarian claims. Germany DoW's Hungary & Bulgaria. The USSR reduces the number of resources it must supply Germany by 2.
The USSR has the following resources for lending & production:
- 3 resource & 2 oil traded to Germany for 2 BP.
- 25 resources & oil for production.

USSR production:
39SO ~ 25 res+oil at 0.25 PM = 6.2 5 BP (rounded down to 6) + 2 BP from Ge = 8 BP
39ND ~ 25 res+oil at 0.25 PM = 6.25 BP (rounded down to 6) +2 BP from Ge = 8 BP
40JF ~ 25 res+oil at 0.5 PM = 12.5 BP (rounded up to 13) + 2 BP from Ge = 15 BP
40MA ~ 25 res+oil at 0.5 PM = 12.5 BP (rounded up to 13) + 2 BP from Ge = 15 BP
40MJ ~ 25 res+oil at 0.5 PM = 12.5 BP (rounded up to 13) + 2 BP from Ge = 15 BP
Total production = 61BP

40JA ~ The USSR demands Finnish borderlands. Germany accepts the claim. The USSR reduces the number of resources it must supply Germany by 1.
The USSR has the following resources for lending & production:
- 2 resource & 2 oil traded to Germany for 2 BP.
- 26 resources & oil for production.

40JA ~ 26 res+oil at 0.5 PM = 13 BP + 2 BP from Ge = 15 BP
40SO ~ 26 res+oil at 0.5 PM = 13 BP + 2 BP from Ge = 15 BP
40ND ~ 26 res+oil at 0.5 PM = 13 BP + 2 BP from Ge = 15 BP
41JF ~ 26 res+oil at 0.5 PM = 13 BP + 2 BP from Ge = 15 BP
41MA ~ 26 res+oil at 0.5 PM = 13 BP + 2 BP from Ge = 15 BP

Total production = 75 BP

SCENARIO 3 Total production = 136 BP

2.6 Fractions
These rules frequently require a calculation that produces a fraction. When you have to do this, round to the nearest whole number, rounding halves up.

Example: Germany has 21 production points. Her production multiple is 1.25, so she has 26.25 build points. This rounds to 26 points. Next year her production multiple increases to 1.5, so she has 31.5 build points. This rounds to 32.

[composer99]

How this would have gone down in an ideal world:

"Hey, Composer99, I noticed a number was off in your calculations, thought you might want to know."
"Gee, thanks for pointing out that error [unspoken: in a fashion that doesn't come across as smarmy and condescending]."

[8|]

Funny thing, Extraneous: You almost found an error in my maths. You just missed it by thiiiis much.

I went and checked a copy of the WiF reference chart, and determined that I had mis-counted something. The USSR has 20 resources & 10 oil; I missed one. So in fact in all three scenarios, it should start with 23 resources & oil to use for production after accounting for the Nazi-Soviet trade agreement, and not 22.

That means USSR production in the three scenarios is:
Scenario #1: 133 bp (where I had originally calculated 130 bp)
Scenario #2: 138 bp (where I had originally calculated 133 bp)
Scenario #3: 143 bp (where I had originally calculated 136 bp)

So if one accepts the premise of the USSR having a total of 29 resources and oil, less whatever is lent to Germany, then your correction of scenario #2 is itself incorrect (because you over-counted the resources available for USSR production).

If one corrects the USSR resources and oil amount to 30, less whatever is lent to Germany, then only your scenario #2 is correct, and then only by accident.

What is more, the changed totals do not, as far as I can see, appreciably alter the important part of my post, which was the conclusion:

USSR's production multiple is low enough that the extra resources from early action in Rumania/Hungary/Bulgaria don't amount to much. One or two extra infantry corps could make the difference for the USSR, but I wouldn't count on it.

Except that it should be one to three extra infantry corps (or one to two extra mech corps). Can't see the Germans calling off Barbarossa on that account.

Soooooo, thanks for bringing the issue up so I could correct the both of us, I guess? I mean, it's not like it was a tangential calculation made to analyse a minor aspect of a side-topic of this thread or any - oh, wait.

[Centuur]

I just took Greece... [:D]

tm.asp?m=3514454&mpage=21&#3751267

[brian brian]

There are a lot of potential pluses and minuses to the USSR resource and resulting BP totals depending on USSR and Axis decisions. But whatever route you take to add them up, there is another factor.

In a game with the Oil rules in play, and I won't play without an Oil rule, neutral Major Powers have the option to save one Oil resource per turn. This is very important for the USSR; they start with 3 saved oil and have the potential to save 10 more before the May/Jun 41 turn, which is their best choice if you ask me. They can save them in Leningrad to keep that factory operating during an Axis siege; it is also nice to save one in Sevastopol and I also like to put one in Rostov, so the Koniev HQ or a FTR can re-organize there even when cut off from the rest of the USSR.

However if the Russians are sending an odd # of resources to Germany, they have to decide each turn if they want to save an oil, or produce an extra Build Point. Each saved oil is a potential Build Point after the Germans attack, or a little bit more depending on the city mods, what year it is, etc.

So I think it is wise for the Germans to consider aligning 2 of their minor allies to force the Russians to make this choice, though I have mentioned not aligning Hungary at all. The Germans get the Hungarian resource anyway, and have trouble using every possible factory even before they add the Hungarian factory. But all that is a wrinkle to the decision making.

Under RaW 7 Oil rules, if the Russians rail move the Zhukov HQ, they will use an oil that turn for re-organization.

And also it is best Allied play to get to a US Entry level of 19 in the Euro pool as soon as possible to pass Resources to USSR if it at all looks like the Axis will choose a 1941 Barbarossa. Russia is quite fragile in 1941 and every bit of advance preparation helps. The USA also has a large interest in passing Option 16 ASAP as well to be able to send excess oil to the CW to be saved in Canada (gamey, sure, but that's how the game works).

The CW can generally afford to send Oil to the USSR as soon as that entry option passes, even if just one Oil to help the Russians save an Oil per turn if needed when Russia has an odd # going out; or 2 or 4 resources a turn to gain a BP/turn for each pair of western resources in 1940 and pre-war 1941.

So with all those minor variables involved, I've never calculated out the BP results of all the decision combinations, as there are so many ways it can all turn out.