Bad German Surrender Rule

World in Flames is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. World In Flames is a highly detailed game covering the both Europe and Pacific Theaters of Operations during World War II. If you want grand strategy this game is for you.

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delatbabel
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Bad German Surrender Rule

Post by delatbabel »

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
Nothing really - once it's at zero or worse the production is zero. But it can get to worse via the "double-dip" ruling on strategic bombing that was affirmed in the FAQ.

Correct -- you can't actually produce a negative amount and neither do you have to remove anything from the production track if your production points are negative -- you just produce nothing.

How the double dip works is this:

* X has 5 resources, 5 factories, therefore 5 production points.
* Y strat bombs 3 of X's factories, reducing X to 2 production points.
* Y then overruns, say, 3 of X's factories. X now has 2 factories, 5 resources, 2 production points, but has lost 3 production points to strat bombing, for a net total of -1 production point. X produces nothing.

It's also quite easy to reduce Japan to zero production or lower with the use of strat bombing. Japan starts with, say, 10 resources being convoyed via 10 convoy points to home factories for a total of 10 production points (ignoring the ones that are already there just for the purpose of illustration). The USA strat bombs 5 factories, say causing -5 production loss. The USA then sinks 5 convoy points, and Japan has run out of spare convoys so can't replace them. The end result is that Japan now has zero production despite the fact that 5 resources could get through to 5 unbombed factories. The points lost to strat bombing cause a double dip effect because Japan can't say, after the strat bombing happens "Oh well, I wasn't going to send any of my resources to that factory anyway" (if Japan could say that then strat bombing would have little or no effect because Japan could always shuffle the resources off to unbombed factories).
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Dabrion
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RE: Bad German Surrender Rule

Post by Dabrion »

That's literally stupid/faq'ed.. Play with markers that disable factory stacks and *not* negative PP.
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Omnius
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Did You Know?

Post by Omnius »

Centuur,
Did you know that Germany can switch it's capital to Angola? In my game I invaded Portugal and Spain as the USA and the program offered me the lands of partially conquered Portugal and Spain as alternate places to put the German capital. How nuts is that?

I made the mistake of declaring war on every country to get rid of that screen. I gave Germany most of the countries in South America below Colombia. Plus I gave Germany Sweden. I can see where that was a big mistake. More units for the program to keep track of which bogged it down badly by 1948. Also more places for Germany to keep transferring to after conquest.

It still comes down to what country would have wanted to host a Nazi government in exile after Germany was beaten and Hitler was killed? The game does not provide us with an historical unconditional surrender option for Germany and Japan when that was what happened historically. Historically Italy gained a second life because German troops occupied important cities and brought back Il Duce. There were no second chances for Nazi Germany or Japan. That's why it's a bad rule, because it's unrealistic and doesn't follow history.

Omnius
brian brian
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RE: Did You Know?

Post by brian brian »

So is invading Portugal and Spain as the USA….

These capital transfers don't amount to much when they happen. If you take Berlin, the Germans aren't going to have Army Group Angola waiting in the wings to continue the struggle because the Allies bypassed Lisbon. The only way to get units to keep fighting, is to take them out of their Home Country, before conquest, and weaken it's defenses. You also need to stash some Oil somewhere. It may seem like a silly rules process, but it just doesn't gain you very much. You might also want to read the rules on how units work after an Incomplete Conquest - they don't return to the Force Pools 50% of the time if removed from the map while in supply (challenging sometimes for a unit without a country), and are removed from the game entirely if eliminated while out of supply. (And a new host country usually can't build anything anyway).

Comparing it to history isn't that instructive - in 1945, the Axis had nothing left aligned to them. The Japanese had Korea, but for probably one more week at the most. The Germans had Prague, aligned under the game rules, for a similar amount of time.

One of the points of the rule is the Allies offered Unconditional Surrender, and no other terms, to the Axis. Any regimes allied to the Axis would have the same terms. Finland managed to come to peace with help from US negotiators, but the other Axis regimes only toppled when overwhelming force was on their doorstep, as it was for the Finns with a major Red Army thrust about to break through their thinned lines. The losing regimes knew their fates and they weren't going to meekly offer up their wrists to be handcuffed and tried. If you want their Objective Hexes for your Victory Point total, you have to go and get them. And basically, the Axis offered the same terms to the countries they attacked, with the exception of the creation of Vichy France.
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warspite1
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Bad German Surrender Rule

Post by warspite1 »

Not sure what you are trying to achieve here.

The rule isn’t going to be changed so the choices are:

a) Accept it’s just one you don’t like but go along with it, or
b) Decide it’s just too much to accept and give the game up

If you don’t like the rule because it’s unrealistic and doesn’t follow history then:

- You won’t like that cruisers are your ASW units
- You won’t like the weather could be rubbish in May/June 1940 (France) and there be an Indian summer in the Soviet Union in November/December 1941.
- You won’t like the factors given to the Italian battleships (factors are decided upon a range of things – speed, armour, radar etc etc. Apparently the RM’s wish to avoid battle when outnumbering the RN is not one of them)
- The ability of the Allies to invade Sweden, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal etc etc - none of which is realistic or historical
- The factors given to some real dog’s of Axis aircraft for game balance purposes
- That if Belgium is aligned to France and Vichy is created then Germany would not be able to defend the Belgian coast because it would belong to Vichy.
- You won’t like that Germany can place entire army groups in Finland blocking the way to Helsinki and yet the Soviet Union and Germany are not at war
- You won’t like the what-if counters – how the hell can Japan build the last two Yamatos and the Super Yamatos?
- While we are at it, you won’t like that the Japanese can fill the Shinano (Essex/Midway styleee) with aircraft?

As you know, this game does not follow history slavishly – it does not purport to. I think it’s clear that a lot of WIF fans have areas they are not keen on (peacekeepers for me – but I made the argument and was mollified – if not entirely won round by the grognards here). So, accept it is what it is and accept too that banging on about how ignorant and unrealistic a rule is, isn’t going to get the rules of MWIF changed.
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paulderynck
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RE: Bad German Surrender Rule

Post by paulderynck »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

If you don’t like the rule because it’s unrealistic and doesn’t follow history then:

- That if Belgium is aligned to France and Vichy is created then Germany would not be able to defend the Belgian coast because it would belong to Vichy.
I'd like to see a game where Vichy gets declared with Belgium still unconquered. That would be instructive. [:)]

But I do agree with your post.
Paul
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warspite1
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RE: Bad German Surrender Rule

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
ORIGINAL: warspite1

If you don’t like the rule because it’s unrealistic and doesn’t follow history then:

- That if Belgium is aligned to France and Vichy is created then Germany would not be able to defend the Belgian coast because it would belong to Vichy.
I'd like to see a game where Vichy gets declared with Belgium still unconquered. That would be instructive. [:)]

But I do agree with your post.
warspite1

You are assuming that the German player doesn't declare war on Belgium and then changes his mind; deciding that proceding through Switzerland is a far more sensible idea [;)]
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
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paulderynck
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RE: Bad German Surrender Rule

Post by paulderynck »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
ORIGINAL: warspite1

If you don’t like the rule because it’s unrealistic and doesn’t follow history then:

- That if Belgium is aligned to France and Vichy is created then Germany would not be able to defend the Belgian coast because it would belong to Vichy.
I'd like to see a game where Vichy gets declared with Belgium still unconquered. That would be instructive. [:)]

But I do agree with your post.
warspite1

You are assuming that the German player doesn't declare war on Belgium and then changes his mind; deciding that proceding through Switzerland is a far more sensible idea [;)]
I like to see a Blitzkrieg through the Maginot line, thrusting into Paris in JF40. [:)]
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brian brian
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RE: Bad German Surrender Rule

Post by brian brian »

And that's what makes the game so great. Germany drops two Offensive Chits, Paratroopers, Engineers, and a whole lot of Stukas to crack the Maginot, rolls quite well along the way, and then the Panzers blitzkrieg through the farm fields to Paris while Belgium stays neutral. Far-fetched? Perhaps. But do you want to find out? You are the Commander. You decide.

And the great thing about Matrix World in Flames is it does make it quite a bit easier to find out before sorting out 5,000 little pieces of cardboard and taking over 50+ square feet of horizontal space…
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