Bad German Surrender Rule

[Omnius]

I have to say that the rule for German surrender is beyond ignorant and unrealistic. When Berlin is captured the German player should be able to surrender unconditionally, just as Germany did historically. I can see where you want to give countries conquered by Germany a chance to have governments in exile. I can even see allowing Italy to revive itself if German units keep Italian cities out of Allied hands. Once, not more than once though no matter how many minor countries Italy might have.

However for Germany the capture of Berlin should be the equivalent of Hitler dying, and in MWiF there is no option to follow history and allow for a German unconditional surrender. The automatic victory rule is no excuse for this most ignorant and unrealistic of rules. Once Hitler was dead the German generals certainly were tired of fighting a losing war. It's just plain ignorant to allow Germany to keep on fighting as some minor country. It really screws up the Allies for being able to redeploy to the Pacific Theater.

What's needed it a "None" choice for moving the German capital once that screen pops up. That would be the unconditional surrender option that would stop the unrealistic and nonsensical transfer of Germany to some minor country. Once Germany surrendered no minor country allies wanted to continue the obviously lost war and so it should be in the game. I've always hated games that had this idiotic no surrender rule in them.

I transferred Germany's capital to Prague figuring that I could capture Prague and two units in the mountains adjacent to Prague would disappear as Czechoslovakia surrendered. Nope the two units stayed there and I had to waste time doing combats to eliminate them. Not a big problem but a real waste of time and effort.

The same with Japan, it should surrender once Japan is conquered. No moronic transfers to some minor country that historically wouldn't have continued the war.

I can see where most WiF board games played by multiple humans would never reach this late stage of the game. However it's a real pain in the behind watching Germany transfer it's captured capital each turn to some other minor ally.

It would be nice if MWiF fixes this idiotic and unrealistic surrender option for Germany and Japan so once the major country is conquered it has the option to move it's capital to "None" which would end the game for that major country as it should and did historically. This rule doesn't take into account real human reactions and falsely allows a losing side to keep on limping along unrealistically. Please give us an unconditional surrender option!

Omnius

[michaelbaldur]

it is in the game, as soon as the allies have taken half of Germany factories, then Germany can surrender
so there are a option for the countries to surrender.

but making a stupid rule like the Italian conquest rule, is just stupid.
the rules are very historical, when Berlin was taken, all it minors were conquered, captured or surrendered


then should there be a special UK surrender rule, or a US surrender rule, or a Russian.


so next time, just surrender Germany, or take out the minor first.

[MilRevKo]

There is nothing unhistorical about it.

The Germans could have fought on with any city "declared" as its capital. The game is not designed to play one script as any one person see it. The allies were convinced that the "bavarian redoubt" was real and thought the war was going to end at the mythical german fortress.

I can see how easy it is for a player to think that. But not Germans, the capital was where ever the Nazi's said it was and the war was over when the Nazi's said it was over, at least to the German people...

[michaelbaldur]

that is why I hate that stupid surrender rule ..

it is to easy to conqueror Italy

[Centuur]

What is the objective in this game for the Axis? To conquer the world and get an automatic victory? Did anyone see this happening on the board? I didn't...

The objective for the Axis is to have at least the number of victory hexes at the end of the July-August 1945 that they have bid for. Now, there are victory hexes outside of Germany too and it isn't unheard of to see Germany holding on to victory hexes after Germany itself gets taken out...

Say, the bid is that Germany has 3 victory hexes at the end of that turn. Those might be Belgrade, Budapest and Bucharest. At that point: it's a victory for the German player (who might be kicked out of those places in a turn or two, but that's beside the point).

Also: it is quite feasable to see governments in exile appearing during a war. It also happened to the Dutch, Belgians, French, Greeks, Yugoslavians and on and on and on, during the war. So why couldn't Hitler go to exile in Rumania or Finland?

The conquest rules makes this possible while at the same time it becomes very difficult to rebuild lost units if you are incompletely conquered as a major power...

On Italy, yes, it's easy to conquer the place. But the same thing could be said for France, regarding the installment of Vichy. Thing is: the political structure of both nations wasn't that good, which resulted in Vichy and the early collapse of Italy.

We can (in the very far away future) perhaps discuss if it is possible to add optional rules, to change these things...

[michaelbaldur]

see governments in exile appearing during a war. It also happened to the Dutch, Belgians, French, Greeks, Yugoslavians and

the Danish [:D]

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

see governments in exile appearing during a war. It also happened to the Dutch, Belgians, French, Greeks, Yugoslavians and

the Danish [:D]

I thought they didn't establish a government in exile during the war? Or am I mistaken?

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

see governments in exile appearing during a war. It also happened to the Dutch, Belgians, French, Greeks, Yugoslavians and

the Danish [:D]

I thought they didn't establish a government in exile during the war? Or am I mistaken?

there were a free Danish naval force, and there were free Danish combat units. so there most have been somekind of leadership in UK

don´t know if it was a government in exile.

[Omnius]

michaelbaldur,
The German surrender rule is not historical or realistic. Germany's allies do not surrender when Germany surrenders, as was done historically. I know this for a fact as I played through capturing every German city and still Germany moves onto another Axis minor ally. After every turn that a new home minor country surrendered Germany would always move onto another minor ally. Obviously you have not played through to the end to see just how idiotic the German surrender rule is. Historically Germany surrendered unconditionally to the Allies and this historical reality is not properly modeled in MWiF.

Omnius

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Omnius

michaelbaldur,
The German surrender rule is not historical or realistic. Germany's allies do not surrender when Germany surrenders, as was done historically. I know this for a fact as I played through capturing every German city and still Germany moves onto another Axis minor ally. After every turn that a new home minor country surrendered Germany would always move onto another minor ally. Obviously you have not played through to the end to see just how idiotic the German surrender rule is. Historically Germany surrendered unconditionally to the Allies and this historical reality is not properly modeled in MWiF.

Omnius

Historically: all German aligned minors were conquered before or at the same time as Berlin was conquered. Prague was conquered in battle on the 9th of may 1945 (so only a couple of days after Berlin) and that was the last German aligned country if you look at the rules of MWIF...

There were only conquered minors in German hands at that time (such as Denmark and Norway) and conquered minor countries can't become the capital of a German government in exile in World in Flames...

[Omnius]

Centuur,
Norway wasn't about to be conquered so your premise isn't correct. It's just plain ludicrous to have Germany not be able to unconditionally surrender if it still has minor country allies. We should have a "None" selection so we can have an unconditional surrender option.

All those who try to make excuses for this nonsensical German surrender rule don't think about the human element. It's too easy to think that when playing with cardboard or electronic counters that no one gets hurt so why not extend a losing battle.

Omnius

[Centuur]

I don't think you understand the rule. The rule is: every country aligned to a major power can host it's government in exile. This means, that to totally conquer Germany in Brute Force, you have to conquer the following countries:

Bulgaria, Rumania, Hungary, Finland, Austria, Czechoslovakia and Germany itself. All other countries cannot host the German government in exile...

Now: historically all those countries were conquered by the Allies before or at the same time as Berlin was...

[Omnius]

Centuur,
I understand the need for governments in exile rule. However for Germany at the end of the war that's the most ignorant rule of all because it clearly ignores history. After Germany surrenders what minor ally aligned with Germany would have wanted to continue a losing war? The rule is stupid and should be fixed so we can have Germany do an unconditional surrender regardless of aligned minor allies.

Omnius

[michaelbaldur]

Austria is not aligned, it is a part of Germany.

[Centuur]

Let me put it this way:

Would any country surrender unconditionally if they still can defend themselves? Especially before WW II, a country which did so, always became a poor country, full of hungry and despaired citizens...

Look at the WW I treaty: Germany, Turkey and Austria had huge reparation payments to do. While in the West their were the "roaring" twenties, in those nations there were food riots, hunger, unemployment, hyperinflation and on and on and on. My grandmother was evacuated out of Austria in those years, together with her schoolchildren to the Netherlands, because there was no food there. And after her return there, it wasn't any better...

So we've got a war going on, which everybody knows will be lost. However, if you surrender, this is an "unconditional" surrender, which will probably mean hunger, occupation, unemployment and no prospects to a better life. So it is better to die with honor and to fight to the last bullit... That's what was the reason the Germans still did fight in 1945, according to my greatuncles diary of those years...

Why did Japan surrender? Because the emperor stayed on as emperor of Japan. That meant that a Japan would be existing after the war and that the country wouldn't be dismantled...

If you don't give the enemy a way out, they will fight and continue to fight, even with the home country conquered. This is also what the Poles, Dutch, Belgians, Norwegians and on and on and on did in the CW forces...

[brian brian]

Hungary might have kept it going. The Arrow Cross group seized what power they could I believe, though it all flowed from the barrels of German guns. Similar regimes could have existed elsewhere in Eastern Europe. Nazi ideology appealed beyond the borders of Germany.

It is generally a moot point for Germany. By the time you reach every German factory, there isn't likely to be much left under their control elsewhere on the board, unless perhaps the UK/US reach Breslau before the Russians somehow. And no German unit was going to surrender to the Russians. They all kept retreating to the west as steadily as they could and only the unchallengeable power of the Western forces could turn over POWs to a Russian unit, I think.

It is also moot because only Objective Hexes on a certain turn matter for the Victory Conditions, not whether a handful of German units still have a primary supply source. And many players look at it more simply than that. If the Allies are still fighting in Europe into the summer of 1945, they lost. Anything beyond that is just an exploration of What If? and the hard coded rules matter very little.

Finland could definitely use some improved rules, but loads of fine detail rules could be added to the game in many areas - but probably won't be.

There are some House Rules for an alternative ending in Japan that float around, but that was a dicey situation all the way through with the Japanese militarists, particularly with their penchant for assassinating political opponents, and just one personality there could have changed history. It wouldn't be simple to write a definitively structured game rule for that situation.

The rules for Italy have changed several times over the editions of the game. It was technically easier for the historical Allies to get the Italians to quit than it currently is in the game. But that also was not a clearly cut situation, with a few dates to pick from, ongoing Fascist participation at miscellaneous levels, and a lot of shades of feld-grau involved there as well.

[delatbabel]

Regardless of historical fact, the rules of the computer game are written as per the rules of the boardgame, and in the boardgame it's possible for the axis to claim a game victory despite the incomplete conquest of Germany.

It's actually quite hard in v.7 of the boardgame rules for the German player to survive with anything better than total annihilation in Jul/Aug 1945 and the axis player (not the German nation, remember we are talking about cut out bits of cardboard and 1s and 0s here, not real people) needs to be rewarded for achieving that.

As an allied player you have to be careful in how you approach the conquest of Germany. A combined approach using the intelligent playing of O chits, cooperation and communication between the allied players, etc, is what is required. A slipshod allied side is going to have to fight much harder to finish off Germany or even get to the point where it's possible.

The same needs to be said for Japan. The correct way to take out Japan is to strangle and then destroy the fleet, isolate the home nation from the mainland Asia assets and then take those out. Only then do you start tackling the Japanese home country. It's extremely important to reduce the Japanese production to zero or thereabouts (due to a glitch in the boardgame rules it's actually possible to reduce it to below zero) very early on in order to have sufficient time to wipe out the navy and air force. If the USA player isn't careful about how he goes about things then it's not going to be an easy task.

[Courtenay]

ORIGINAL: delatbabel
It's extremely important to reduce the Japanese production to zero or thereabouts (due to a glitch in the boardgame rules it's actually possible to reduce it to below zero) very early on in order to have sufficient time to wipe out the navy and air force. If the USA player isn't careful about how he goes about things then it's not going to be an easy task.

OK, I'll bite. How do you reduce any country's production below zero? What does that even mean?

[paulderynck]

Nothing really - once it's at zero or worse the production is zero. But it can get to worse via the "double-dip" ruling on strategic bombing that was affirmed in the FAQ.

[warspite1]

Please stop changing the thread titles.