Reduced ToE % for labor/construct battalions

[jzardos]

What is the down side to assigning 50% Max ToE for German labor/construct battalions? Does this mean they build forts and fix rail (auto) at 50% reduced rate?

What other units do German players set to reduced ToE? HQs? Downside here?

thanks

[morvael]

They contribute less to rail repair and fort construction. I ran my con bns at 50% TOE in a Moscow scenario PBEM and even three on a hex had trouble repairing it fully during one turn, usually it took two turns.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: morvael

They contribute less to rail repair and fort construction. I ran my con bns at 50% TOE in a Moscow scenario PBEM and even three on a hex had trouble repairing it fully during one turn, usually it took two turns.

question in reverse.

I've made bombing the FBDs a bit of a pet project for a few turns in our current game. Not least it is satisfying to see such an immediate return in real losses for part of the air war. What I've not been sure of is if, apart from raising my morale, this has any effect?

Presume then if I can cause sustained attrition to the FBDs then they will repair rails more slowly?

[morvael]

Those units are on permanent refit (second grade as of 1.08) so if you kill a lot of men (do you?) this may drain enemy's manpower pools. But you have to face flak and interception on your way to the target, so the question is whether this trade off is acceptable?

edit: FBD will quickly replace losses, so apart from fatigue and experience loss which result in small repair strength reduction there should be no significant changes. Also, FBD mostly repair at constant rate in MP and have the same amount MP per turn (I think it's reduced in efficiency when it's SU are detached), so I don't think you can affect them so much as to slow them down. I think you may slow down the individual SU that perform automated repair.

edit 2: I see that unless FBD repair strength is reduced below 500, it will always repair with the same efficiency (1/3 MP per hex / reduction to 1 damage). This strength is based on squads from attached support units. With all the multipliers in place I don't think it's possible to reduce this strength so low by bombing (also: do support units suffer from bombing or just the parent units?).

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: morvael

Those units are on permanent refit (second grade as of 1.08) so if you kill a lot of men (do you?) this may drain enemy's manpower pools. But you have to face flak and interception on your way to the target, so the question is whether this trade off is acceptable?

I think so, between a night visit from the U2s and a large daylight bombing raid, I think I killed about 600 last turn (and another 400 into the disabled pool), this was spread over 2 FBDs that I spotted.

(edit - for this I lost 36 planes due to flak and interception)

Given the circumstances of our game, at the moment the VVS is one of my few potent weapons so I'm prepared to run it into the ground to try and gain some traction. Also the slower SigUp can push his rails east, the less chance he has to finish me off - it was trying to delay the logistics gain that started me on this approach rather than any appreciation of a wider impact on German manpower numbers.

[morvael]

Some math:
R.A.D. Labor Group (a SU attached to FBD) has 72 Labor Squads.
base number 72
fatige 15: 72 * (100-15) / 100 = 61
engineer x3 multiplier: does not apply
R.A.D. / O.T. / RR Construction x9 multiplier: 549
attached to FBD x3 multiplier: 1647

Sample FBD has 3 such units attached plus 2 O.T. battalions with 36 labor squads each (~820 repair strength), and 2 Road Construction battalions with 36 labor squads each (~410 repair strength). This means a total repair strength of ~7400. It would be hard to reduce that number below 500 required for preventing repair, unless the owner detached some SUs (which may be a good idea, seeing how much capacity is wasted by not letting them operate on their own). The problem is you can either block repair or there will be no effect at all (in case of FBD/NKPS).

edit: I think the best effect is the loss of 600 men. That is a significant number in the long term and FBD units are very big nearly unarmed mobs of men (sample had 27k). Don't count on slowing the repair though.

edit 2: The RRV value in the unit box show the "repair strength", for the sample unit it was 15, and I went as low as 2 and repair speed was not affected. It will be blocked once RRV reaches 0.

[morvael]

So actually another gamey tactics is revealed, the FBD itself can be put to 50% MAX TOE (10k men freed and many spared from becoming disabled due to damage) and will do just as well with 1 R.A.D. Labor Group and 1 O.T. Construction Battalion at 100% TOE, keeping an RRV of ~5, bringing the men number down from ~27k to ~12k while keeping the same repair speed. The caveat is there is no way to attach SU back to FBD, so this adjustment can be done only once and can't be later rescinded by adding some SU back, so safety margins must be significant. Only the MAX TOE and number of SU kept allows some maneuver.

it was trying to delay the logistics gain that started me on this approach rather than any appreciation of a wider impact on German manpower numbers.

The effect seems to be the opposite. A quick calculation (if your numbers of 600 killed + 400 disabled are true and can be sustained) reveal a manpower loss of nearly 30 000 - 17k killed and 10k disabled - in space of 30 turns. That is a significant number.

[Denniss]

Is attacking a FBD unit treated as atacking a HQ (if there's a special rule for that) or like any other ground unit?
-> Huge amount of unarmed men without any direct air defense makes them easy pray for prolonged air attacks.
Should an Axis player be prohibited from detaching RAD/construction units from a FBD unit?

[carlkay58]

It acts as though it is an HQ in my experience.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: morvael

So actually another gamey tactics is revealed, the FBD itself can be put to 50% MAX TOE (10k men freed and many spared from becoming disabled due to damage) and will do just as well with 1 R.A.D. Labor Group and 1 O.T. Construction Battalion at 100% TOE, keeping an RRV of ~5, bringing the men number down from ~27k to ~12k while keeping the same repair speed. The caveat is there is no way to attach SU back to FBD, so this adjustment can be done only once and can't be later rescinded by adding some SU back, so safety margins must be significant. Only the MAX TOE and number of SU kept allows some maneuver.

it was trying to delay the logistics gain that started me on this approach rather than any appreciation of a wider impact on German manpower numbers.

The effect seems to be the opposite. A quick calculation (if your numbers of 600 killed + 400 disabled are true and can be sustained) reveal a manpower loss of nearly 30 000 - 17k killed and 10k disabled - in space of 30 turns. That is a significant number.

Just put a LW HQ in the same hex with 9 AA units in it and watch the Russian planes drop like flies lol

Not to hard to counter all the Russian plane bombing silliness now.

Move a LW AA regiment into a tonw close to front and park your 2 fighter bases in same town and a LW HQ's.

Saper stopped bombing my fighter airbases for some strange reason and now hits my army airbases

[morvael]

AA nearby will always help, to bad no AA can be attached to FBD, and that additional units are needed to protect it, but it's possible to defend FBD, individual repair units less so.