US entry bug

Post bug reports and ask for game support here.

Moderator: Shannon V. OKeets

joshuamnave
Posts: 967
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:51 am
Contact:

RE: US entry bug

Post by joshuamnave »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

a) there are too few beta testers (this is the reason a public beta was required)

This is a problem with a relatively easy solution. If Matrix was interested in fixing it, there would be a call for new beta testers or they would reach out individually for more testers. They have not done that. A public beta was not required (and the very idea of a public beta one year on should make Matrix management cringe in embarrassment), but it was easier to call it a public beta *after* taking our money than it was to actually fix the problem.
b) even if there were, there is then the problem that they hold down jobs and have lives. Getting all the 25%'s tested properly in the time available is slim

Yes, the system is broken. Someone has to take an active interest in fixing it.
c) how many of the beta testers actually know all the rules and what they are looking for? There are some - but otherwise the knowledge base is mixed - with the best will in the world stuff will get missed.

This is a problem. Beta testers should know the rules of the game they are testing. This argument is akin to the guy who went to court and tried to get his breathalyzer test thrown out because he was too drunk to give consent for a breathalyzer test.
d) there is soooo much to test. Just take one naval battle with subs, air and TRS. To properly test it the sheer number of goes would be staggering.

I accept that and agree. What prompts my angry rants aren't the bugs that pop up in rare situations. That's an unavoidable consequence of code this complicated. If Matrix put a team of twenty programmers and 100 testers on this game for five years, those kind of bugs would still pop up. My rants are triggered by the kind of bugs that come up five minutes after installing a new build - and that happens far too often.
Bottom line. I have no problem with anger coming from anyone who has paid good money for this game. The situation is as frustrating as hell. But the lazy, half-arsed, blame game - which totally misses the target - is just rubbish.

So who do you blame? It's easy as hell to blame an amorphous "system", so that nobody is responsible. But that doesn't get the job done. Matrix solution seems to be to put the onus onto their customers by creating a "public beta" so that *we* are responsible for testing. That's insulting. Someone, whether it's Steve or Matrix, has decided that finding more testers isn't necessary, nor is changing the way in which testing is conducted.

Noun 1. blame game - accusations exchanged among people who refuse to accept sole responsibility for some undesirable event

You're damn right I refuse to accept responsibility. Is that what you were implying when you said it was a lazy, half-arsed blame game?
Head Geek in Charge at politigeek.net - the intersection of politics and all things geeky
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41896
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: US entry bug

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

ORIGINAL: warspite1

a) there are too few beta testers (this is the reason a public beta was required)

This is a problem with a relatively easy solution. If Matrix was interested in fixing it, there would be a call for new beta testers or they would reach out individually for more testers. They have not done that. A public beta was not required (and the very idea of a public beta one year on should make Matrix management cringe in embarrassment), but it was easier to call it a public beta *after* taking our money than it was to actually fix the problem.
b) even if there were, there is then the problem that they hold down jobs and have lives. Getting all the 25%'s tested properly in the time available is slim

Yes, the system is broken. Someone has to take an active interest in fixing it.
c) how many of the beta testers actually know all the rules and what they are looking for? There are some - but otherwise the knowledge base is mixed - with the best will in the world stuff will get missed.

This is a problem. Beta testers should know the rules of the game they are testing. This argument is akin to the guy who went to court and tried to get his breathalyzer test thrown out because he was too drunk to give consent for a breathalyzer test.
d) there is soooo much to test. Just take one naval battle with subs, air and TRS. To properly test it the sheer number of goes would be staggering.

I accept that and agree. What prompts my angry rants aren't the bugs that pop up in rare situations. That's an unavoidable consequence of code this complicated. If Matrix put a team of twenty programmers and 100 testers on this game for five years, those kind of bugs would still pop up. My rants are triggered by the kind of bugs that come up five minutes after installing a new build - and that happens far too often.
Bottom line. I have no problem with anger coming from anyone who has paid good money for this game. The situation is as frustrating as hell. But the lazy, half-arsed, blame game - which totally misses the target - is just rubbish.

So who do you blame? It's easy as hell to blame an amorphous "system", so that nobody is responsible. But that doesn't get the job done. Matrix solution seems to be to put the onus onto their customers by creating a "public beta" so that *we* are responsible for testing. That's insulting. Someone, whether it's Steve or Matrix, has decided that finding more testers isn't necessary, nor is changing the way in which testing is conducted.

Noun 1. blame game - accusations exchanged among people who refuse to accept sole responsibility for some undesirable event

You're damn right I refuse to accept responsibility. Is that what you were implying when you said it was a lazy, half-arsed blame game?
warspite1

Quite where you got the idea that I am holding you responsible (what for I can’t image) is just baffling so I won’t even bother addressing that strange accusation…. I was reacting to your unwarranted attack on the beta testers in your OP.

Let me answer your other points one by one as per the above:

a). You have not the slightest idea about the history of the beta testers, how many were taken on, and how many never registered so much as one post before disappearing. “Easy solution”?? No it isn’t. Getting beta testers that could deal with this monster was not “easy”. Sure, plenty volunteered but very few ever contributed anything.

b). Yes, someone has to take an active interest within the constraints of what is economically possible. and within that the beta testers are doing what they can.

c). So Beta Testers should know the rules of this monster? Right. No problems there except - Please see point 1 and your “easy” solution. Do you begin to see the problem now? Have you any idea how many discussions there are with grognards not being able to agree on a rule? How many people have admitted "There's a rule we played wrong for years?" This is a COMPLEX game. So keen and eager beta testers would turn up - see what testing involves and then took one look at the rules (if they got that far) and scarpered.

d). Agreed. I am not a programmer. Because of that I too fail to see how working on naval bugs leads to US Entry going askew. I’ve no idea how or why. It’s incredibly frustrating but I do not understand enough about it. I am sure Steve isn't doing it for s^&* and giggles....

Final point – who do I blame?

Not your fault, but this line of questioning has been done to death long before your arrival here.

I don’t blame anyone. What’s the point? It’s not like you can say “I blame X for doing Y”. “Right we shall do Z and it will all be okay”. The fact is all that can be done (given the economic restrictions in play) is being done. There are those that claimed there were hundreds of companies out there that would throw millions of £ in development funds into the project and have the game out, perfect, within months and that Matrix did not want the fame to come out. Yes - there were.....

Fact:
- Without matrix and Steve THERE IS NO World In Flames on computer. After this experience do you believe there will be a queue of companies gagging to take up the mantle if Matrix goes away? This is what we have. I hope to god it works out because if not its almost certainly goodbye.
- This is a niche game – how many board game copies do you think were ever sold? That niche status means the economics of programming and testing are restricted. It’s a shame, it’s frustrating but it is what it is.
- Was the game brought out too early and have people been sold a pup? I have my thoughts but the latter is for Matrix to answer. But as for the former, sadly I am ever more certain in the opinion that if this game was still not out, and still being beta tested by the dwindling band of dedicated individuals that it was, then it would not even be in half the shape that it is now. The progress made compared to day 1 is huge. So not great either way, but yes, better to have the game out and being worked on by a much larger audience in terms of trying to get it finished. Of course those that bought it and now see themselves as beta testers may have other ideas, but then they can always refuse to take part in the public beta.

Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
Dabrion
Posts: 740
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:26 am
Location: Northpole

RE: US entry bug

Post by Dabrion »

There is Paul, who is on the rules list, and I know that Patrice took some interest in MWiF as well. So I don't see how you lack people with authority on things WiF. Perhaps Matrix should get some consulting or pay these top-tier people already available. But, wait.. they are probably too busy giggling while you build the myth of infinite complexity for them.. rather stretch their legs, prolly buying beers with OUR MONEY!

p.s.: I'll take some extra effort to sink the Warspite in my next WiF game *cheers*
"If we come to a minefield, our infantry attacks exactly as it were not there." ~ Georgy Zhukov
User avatar
paulderynck
Posts: 8356
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:27 pm
Location: Canada

RE: US entry bug

Post by paulderynck »

The alcofluence of incolhol is precenting me fr om rememberencing the $um of my retainer... burp
Paul
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41896
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: US entry bug

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

There is Paul, who is on the rules list, and I know that Patrice took some interest in MWiF as well. So I don't see how you lack people with authority on things WiF. Perhaps Matrix should get some consulting or pay these top-tier people already available. But, wait.. they are probably too busy giggling while you build the myth of infinite complexity for them.. rather stretch their legs, prolly buying beers with OUR MONEY!

p.s.: I'll take some extra effort to sink the Warspite in my next WiF game *cheers*
warspite1

You seem to be struggling with a fairly basic concept here Dabrion old boy. Yes there is plenty of experience on the beta team. But the fact Paul or Lex or Bjorn know the game inside out does not help me or bo or bommerrang when we are sitting at home testing and trying to spot issues does it? Has that aided your understanding at all?

P.S. Re sinking HMS Warspite [adopts best Dick Emery impression] ohhh I do like you, but you are awful!
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41896
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: US entry bug

Post by warspite1 »

P.P.S Oh I almost forgot. Dabrion please keep me updated on the refund quest *cheers*.


P.P.P.S Why did you put a * either side of Cheers? Just wondering.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
JeffroK
Posts: 6395
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:05 am

RE: US entry bug

Post by JeffroK »

We seem to be in an odd situation where a seemingly professional organization, Matrix/Slitherine promotes Computer Games solely developed by amateurs, supported by amateurs and play tested by amateurs. (Meaning unpaid, no other inference) Is the ghost of SPI living at Matrix??

It then puts out a product which in many ways is unplayable, not just WIF but it seems just about every title needs a major patch immediately after release.

I buy other games from other developers, some need a minor patch, most fixes are mods which correct OOB or graphics.

How can Matrix/Slitherine continue with their current style, only 2-3 games seem succesful and other just left to wither. What happens to WIF if Steve should have to stop his involvement.

As shown, many here LOVE the game, and will put up with the bugs in the hope it is fixed, but the forum is a big negative to those considering a purchase, especially those non-core WIF Boardgamers.

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum
bo
Posts: 4175
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:52 pm

RE: US entry bug

Post by bo »

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

The alcofluence of incolhol is precenting me fr om rememberencing the $um of my retainer... burp

That Canadian club can effect spelling Paul as we all know but even a little drunk I could remember the amount of my retainer [:D]

Bo
User avatar
Viktor_Kormel_slith
Posts: 372
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:47 pm

RE: US entry bug

Post by Viktor_Kormel_slith »

I think you install the betas if you want so There´s no reason to angry laments if you get bugged. If you want minimize risk install just official patches. By other way, the deveplopment of the game is slow and this is not good but keeps marching and this is good[;)]. We play one time for week and event with a bugged game we have fun!
Thanks to the beta testers and sorry to the weepers[:'(]
Sorry, for my bad english! "Wiffing" since 1990 to the tomb!
joshuamnave
Posts: 967
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:51 am
Contact:

RE: US entry bug

Post by joshuamnave »

ORIGINAL: rkr1958


You and the other private beta testers and contributors is what made / makes MWiF possible. Thank you!


No. My money (and yours, and everyone else that bought this game) is what made / makes MWiF possible. But you're not the only one who is confused - Matrix seems to have forgotten that as well. Which is why I'll never help make another one of their games possible.
Head Geek in Charge at politigeek.net - the intersection of politics and all things geeky
User avatar
paulderynck
Posts: 8356
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:27 pm
Location: Canada

RE: US entry bug

Post by paulderynck »

ORIGINAL: Viktor_Kormel

I think you install the betas if you want so There´s no reason to angry laments if you get bugged. If you want minimize risk install just official patches. By other way, the deveplopment of the game is slow and this is not good but keeps marching and this is good[;)]. We play one time for week and event with a bugged game we have fun!
Thanks to the beta testers and sorry to the weepers[:'(]
Yes, exactly.
Paul
User avatar
Grotius
Posts: 5842
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2002 5:34 pm
Location: The Imperial Palace.

RE: US entry bug

Post by Grotius »

Earlier someone asked whether all of us testers are experts on WIF and its rules. It's a fair question. When I was accepted as a tester, in late 2005 or early 2006, I made clear that I had never played WIF at all -- and I argued that was a reason to bring me on board. I'd played lots of detailed boardgames -- ASL, Advanced Third Reich (which I used to think was the bees' knees, til I played MWIF), not to mention WITP/AE. I think it's been useful to have a newb or two around, to react as a newbie customer might react. I spent much of my early years testing tutorials, proofreading documentation, and above all making newbish moves that an expert would never attempt -- and thereby uncovering bugs. I still ask newbish questions in the beta forums and in the WIF School and AAR forums here, but now my questions are mostly about strategy and tactics, not the rules.

My friends in the armed services sometimes talk about a "Major Mudd" edit -- a review by a smart guy who is not an expert on the subject. Major Mudd sometimes sees problems that the experts overlook because they're focused on higher-order tasks. I like to think of myself as Major Mudd. So if you see me asking a newbish question in the AAR or WIF school forums, please don't flame me for being a useless tester. I think I've made my share of contributions.

Until I wrote this post, incidentally, I hadn't realized I've been testing this game almost nine years! Mind you, I've taken a few extended vacations -- this year because of a death in the family, which left me with no desire to play (much less test) games. But, like the monster in every horror movie, I always come back. :)
Image
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41896
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: US entry bug

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: JeffK

We seem to be in an odd situation where a seemingly professional organization, Matrix/Slitherine promotes Computer Games solely developed by amateurs, supported by amateurs and play tested by amateurs. (Meaning unpaid, no other inference) Is the ghost of SPI living at Matrix??

It then puts out a product which in many ways is unplayable, not just WIF but it seems just about every title needs a major patch immediately after release.

I buy other games from other developers, some need a minor patch, most fixes are mods which correct OOB or graphics.

How can Matrix/Slitherine continue with their current style, only 2-3 games seem succesful and other just left to wither. What happens to WIF if Steve should have to stop his involvement.

As shown, many here LOVE the game, and will put up with the bugs in the hope it is fixed, but the forum is a big negative to those considering a purchase, especially those non-core WIF Boardgamers.

warspite1
It then puts out a product which in many ways is unplayable, not just WIF but it seems just about every title needs a major patch immediately after release.

Sadly that has been my experience with most computer games - not just Matrix. Total War to name one. Civilisation IV was being patched years after its introduction.
What happens to WIF if Steve should have to stop his involvement.

I suspect you know the answer to that one [:(]
As shown, many here LOVE the game, and will put up with the bugs in the hope it is fixed, but the forum is a big negative to those considering a purchase, especially those non-core WIF Boardgamers.

I suspect the forum is a frustrating mix of positive and negative; positive because many people looking at the maps, the counters, the AAR's will be desperate to buy this good looking, well presented, award winning game with its map of the whole world, the stunning counters and the sheer scope of the game.

Then they read Tech Support and some other threads and its "ohhh....."
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
Centuur
Posts: 9013
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:03 pm
Location: Hoorn (NED).

RE: US entry bug

Post by Centuur »

Gentlemen, gentlemen please. I'm away for a day and than we all get upset because of a lousy written bug report!

First, let me say that Mr. Zartacla is, IMHO, contributing to this game in a way I believe is good. He finds bugs and for that, we need to be grateful.

It's only the way he reports those bugs, which is often done in an aggressive style, which is bothering me. His frustrations on finding a bug were clearly written, blaming everone on the test team here on not finding this problem during testing...

Personally, I won't hold that frustration against Mr. Zartacla. However, what I would like to see, is that Mr. Zartacla acknowledges the fact that the thing he wrote in his initial bug report, can be seen as being abusive to the test team. This goes too far, where I'm concerned.

What I want to know is how he thinks the way he is operating is discussed on the close forums (and yes, this is discussed, mr. Zartacla...)? A Dutch saying says: "you catch a fly with honey, not with vinegar"...


Peter
User avatar
Dabrion
Posts: 740
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:26 am
Location: Northpole

RE: US entry bug

Post by Dabrion »

Dutch sayings are false though.. vinegar all the way! Do you really think you are a fly ?? Perhaps we should try a candle then..

p.s.: @Forum GeStaPo .. who cares about your dirty talk behind closed doors..
"If we come to a minefield, our infantry attacks exactly as it were not there." ~ Georgy Zhukov
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41896
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: US entry bug

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

Dutch sayings are false though.. vinegar all the way! Do you really think you are a fly ?? Perhaps we should try a candle then..

p.s.: @Forum GeStaPo .. who cares about your dirty talk behind closed doors..
warspite1

Agreed. The only dirty talk I want to here around here is from you big boy. Go on - give us some more.

P.S Any chance of an answer to the *cheers* question please? Thanks.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
warspite1
Posts: 41896
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:06 pm
Location: England

RE: US entry bug

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

Dutch sayings are false though.. vinegar all the way! Do you really think you are a fly ?? Perhaps we should try a candle then..

p.s.: @Forum GeStaPo .. who cares about your dirty talk behind closed doors..
warspite1

I think that's a bit of a generalisation, although this one seems a bit iffy. I mean, I don't own any geese....

Elk waant dat zijn uil een Valk is.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
User avatar
paulderynck
Posts: 8356
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:27 pm
Location: Canada

RE: US entry bug

Post by paulderynck »

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

Dutch sayings are false though.. vinegar all the way! Do you really think you are a fly ?? Perhaps we should try a candle then..

p.s.: @Forum GeStaPo .. who cares about your dirty talk behind closed doors..
Don't worry - your posts aren't worth the trouble.
Paul
User avatar
Dabrion
Posts: 740
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:26 am
Location: Northpole

RE: US entry bug

Post by Dabrion »

Finally, something I have in common with MWiF!
"If we come to a minefield, our infantry attacks exactly as it were not there." ~ Georgy Zhukov
User avatar
rkr1958
Posts: 27448
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 10:23 am

RE: US entry bug

Post by rkr1958 »

I'm starting to understand something about the difference between WiF versus MWiF, besides the obvious, which is one is played with cardboard and paper and the other is played on the computer.

So the following are generalizations based on my opinions. WiF has a hardcore following that learned and played the game the old fashion way. The same way I learned and played a number of Avalon Hill wargames in the 70's and 80's, and which I still have. Classics such as Third Reich, Squad Leader/Cross of Iron, France 1940, Stalingrad, Fortress Europe, Panzer Leader, Panzer Blitz, Tobruk, Victory in the Pacific, War at Sea, Midway, Hitler's War, Richthofen's War, Arab-Israeli War and Guns of August. I think that covers my collection. I have these games stored in 3 large plastic bins. Though, I haven't played any of them since the late '80's this collection represents a part of my history that I never plan to give up.

So life, family and work came as it does for all of us. So in the late 80's I put these games up never to play again. Then came computer war games, 3rd Reich on PC (early to mid 90's) and then in the last 5 to 10 years came Commander Europe aw War (CEaW) and (CEaW - Grand Strategy (GS), Panzer Corps and Battlefield Academy (BA). And I was in heaven. I could play wargames of the period that I enjoy (i.e., ww2) without having to worry about managing the paper, cardboard and RULES! Right or wrong the computer took care of all that for me. I didn't have to worry about the physical space, everything was stored in the computer.

Now flash ahead to late last winter (of this year). I took the plunge into the world of (M)WiF. No bones about it, it has a very steep learning curve. I read/did all the tutorials, watch the videos, played the introductory scenarios and asked (still asking) lots of questions of you (the experts). And, I've been rewarded with a new gaming experience, heck new hobby, that joyfully consumes a good portion of my free time. I'm happy to let the computer take care of the rules for me. I don't miss one bit all the rules interpretation (lawyer'ing) that I had to deal with back when I played these types on games with cardboard and paper. Also, my eyes aren't what they use to be so it's nice to be able to zoom when necessary. And, I don't have to worry about knocking over other stacks when trying to move a given stack.

If not for MWiF, I would never muster the will or the energy to jump into WiF. So there it is. I'm in a group, which I have no idea how big it is, that enjoys playing WiF on computer (MWiF) and that will never take the step to be part of that elite and expert group that plays WiF with cardboard and paper. I'm content to play and enjoy MWiF. But, I really do appreciate all the time, help and advice that you gurus give me. And I wish to express a big thanks to you all. Because without you, the testers and developers I wouldn't be having a blast playing MWiF!
Ronnie
Post Reply

Return to “Tech Support”