What a day in the city of Ottawa

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GaryChildress
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RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa

Post by GaryChildress »

Never mind. I was going to respond to Curtis Lemay that congress hasn't declared "war" yet but I guess according to the 2003 Authorization for Use of Military Force we are at "war" with ISIS.
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RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: chijohnaok
ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Willful ignorance is stupid. Islam TEACHES that only Islam is allowed as Government and religion. It teaches that killing unbelievers is to be done, it teaches that lying to unbelievers is acceptable. It's holy book teaches war and murder of unbelievers and the end result is the death or conversion of all non Muslims. Currently thgere are two schools of thought on how that will come to pass. One is to out breed us and win by assimilating our cultures through immigration and conversion by numbers, The other is that holy war must be waged to destroy all unbelievers.

Failure to understand your enemies and the threats they pose is a fatal flaw and weakness.

The same Bible that commands Jews to “love your neighbor as yourself” (Leviticus 19:18) also exhorts them to “kill every man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey,” who worship any other God (1 Sam. 15:3). The same Jesus Christ who told his disciples to “turn the other cheek” (Matthew 5:39) also told them that he had “not come to bring peace but the sword” (Matthew 10:34), and that “he who does not have a sword should sell his cloak and buy one” (Luke 22:36). The same Quran that warns believers “if you kill one person it is as though you have killed all of humanity” (5:32) also commands them to “slay the idolaters wherever you find them” (9:5).


How a worshiper treats these conflicting commandments depends on the believer. If you are a violent misogynist, you will find plenty in your scriptures to justify your beliefs. If you are a peaceful, democratic feminist, you will also find justification in the scriptures for your point of view.

Yes, portions of the Bible do contain phrases that direct believers to 'live by the sword'. That said, there is a big difference at the present time between Christians and Muslims.

Thousands of acts of terror have been conducted over the last 10-15 years by Muslims acting in the name of Islam, resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands (most of them other Muslims).
How many acts of terror have been conducted by Christians in the name of Christinity during the same time period?

What their "Book" (Be it the Bible or the Koran) says is one thing. How the followers of the Book act on that is entirely another matter.

The Muslims in this country, some 3,000,000 last I heard, are not running around bombing buildings and killing people.

What a member of a suburban megachurch in Texas calls Christianity may be radically different from what an impoverished coffee picker in the hills of Guatemala calls Christianity. The cultural practices of a Saudi Muslim, when it comes to the role of women in society, are largely irrelevant to a Muslim in a more secular society like Turkey or Indonesia.

Members of the Islamic State are Muslims for the simple fact that they declare themselves to be so. Dismissing their profession of belief prevents us from dealing honestly with the inherent problems of reconciling religious doctrine with the realities of the modern world. But considering that most of its victims are also Muslims — as are most of the forces fighting and condemning the Islamic State — the group’s self-ascribed Islamic identity cannot be used to make any logical statement about Islam as a global religion.

At the same time, critics of religion must refrain from simplistic generalizations about people of faith. It is true that in many Muslim countries, women do not have the same rights as men. But that fact alone is not enough to declare Islam a religion that is intrinsically more patriarchal than Christianity or Judaism. (It’s worth noting that Muslim-majority nations have elected women leaders on several occasions, while some Americans still debate whether the United States is ready for a female president.)



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RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: chijohnaok
ORIGINAL: Aurelian




The same Bible that commands Jews to “love your neighbor as yourself” (Leviticus 19:18) also exhorts them to “kill every man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey,” who worship any other God (1 Sam. 15:3). The same Jesus Christ who told his disciples to “turn the other cheek” (Matthew 5:39) also told them that he had “not come to bring peace but the sword” (Matthew 10:34), and that “he who does not have a sword should sell his cloak and buy one” (Luke 22:36). The same Quran that warns believers “if you kill one person it is as though you have killed all of humanity” (5:32) also commands them to “slay the idolaters wherever you find them” (9:5).


How a worshiper treats these conflicting commandments depends on the believer. If you are a violent misogynist, you will find plenty in your scriptures to justify your beliefs. If you are a peaceful, democratic feminist, you will also find justification in the scriptures for your point of view.

Yes, portions of the Bible do contain phrases that direct believers to 'live by the sword'. That said, there is a big difference at the present time between Christians and Muslims.

Thousands of acts of terror have been conducted over the last 10-15 years by Muslims acting in the name of Islam, resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands (most of them other Muslims).
How many acts of terror have been conducted by Christians in the name of Christinity during the same time period?

What their "Book" (Be it the Bible or the Koran) says is one thing. How the followers of the Book act on that is entirely another matter.

The Muslims in this country, some 3,000,000 last I heard, are not running around bombing buildings and killing people.

What a member of a suburban megachurch in Texas calls Christianity may be radically different from what an impoverished coffee picker in the hills of Guatemala calls Christianity. The cultural practices of a Saudi Muslim, when it comes to the role of women in society, are largely irrelevant to a Muslim in a more secular society like Turkey or Indonesia.

Members of the Islamic State are Muslims for the simple fact that they declare themselves to be so. Dismissing their profession of belief prevents us from dealing honestly with the inherent problems of reconciling religious doctrine with the realities of the modern world. But considering that most of its victims are also Muslims — as are most of the forces fighting and condemning the Islamic State — the group’s self-ascribed Islamic identity cannot be used to make any logical statement about Islam as a global religion.

At the same time, critics of religion must refrain from simplistic generalizations about people of faith. It is true that in many Muslim countries, women do not have the same rights as men. But that fact alone is not enough to declare Islam a religion that is intrinsically more patriarchal than Christianity or Judaism. (It’s worth noting that Muslim-majority nations have elected women leaders on several occasions, while some Americans still debate whether the United States is ready for a female president.)

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RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa

Post by Twotribes »

The west is at war with Islam. And because of stupidity and ignorance we will probably lose.
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RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa

Post by AbwehrX »

Are political topics of this nature allowed now?
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RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa

Post by GaryChildress »

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: chijohnaok
ORIGINAL: Aurelian




The same Bible that commands Jews to “love your neighbor as yourself” (Leviticus 19:18) also exhorts them to “kill every man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey,” who worship any other God (1 Sam. 15:3). The same Jesus Christ who told his disciples to “turn the other cheek” (Matthew 5:39) also told them that he had “not come to bring peace but the sword” (Matthew 10:34), and that “he who does not have a sword should sell his cloak and buy one” (Luke 22:36). The same Quran that warns believers “if you kill one person it is as though you have killed all of humanity” (5:32) also commands them to “slay the idolaters wherever you find them” (9:5).


How a worshiper treats these conflicting commandments depends on the believer. If you are a violent misogynist, you will find plenty in your scriptures to justify your beliefs. If you are a peaceful, democratic feminist, you will also find justification in the scriptures for your point of view.

Yes, portions of the Bible do contain phrases that direct believers to 'live by the sword'. That said, there is a big difference at the present time between Christians and Muslims.

Thousands of acts of terror have been conducted over the last 10-15 years by Muslims acting in the name of Islam, resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands (most of them other Muslims).
How many acts of terror have been conducted by Christians in the name of Christinity during the same time period?

What their "Book" (Be it the Bible or the Koran) says is one thing. How the followers of the Book act on that is entirely another matter.

The Muslims in this country, some 3,000,000 last I heard, are not running around bombing buildings and killing people.

What a member of a suburban megachurch in Texas calls Christianity may be radically different from what an impoverished coffee picker in the hills of Guatemala calls Christianity. The cultural practices of a Saudi Muslim, when it comes to the role of women in society, are largely irrelevant to a Muslim in a more secular society like Turkey or Indonesia.

Members of the Islamic State are Muslims for the simple fact that they declare themselves to be so. Dismissing their profession of belief prevents us from dealing honestly with the inherent problems of reconciling religious doctrine with the realities of the modern world. But considering that most of its victims are also Muslims — as are most of the forces fighting and condemning the Islamic State — the group’s self-ascribed Islamic identity cannot be used to make any logical statement about Islam as a global religion.

At the same time, critics of religion must refrain from simplistic generalizations about people of faith. It is true that in many Muslim countries, women do not have the same rights as men. But that fact alone is not enough to declare Islam a religion that is intrinsically more patriarchal than Christianity or Judaism. (It’s worth noting that Muslim-majority nations have elected women leaders on several occasions, while some Americans still debate whether the United States is ready for a female president.)




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RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa

Post by Chijohnaok2 »

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: chijohnaok
ORIGINAL: Aurelian




The same Bible that commands Jews to “love your neighbor as yourself” (Leviticus 19:18) also exhorts them to “kill every man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey,” who worship any other God (1 Sam. 15:3). The same Jesus Christ who told his disciples to “turn the other cheek” (Matthew 5:39) also told them that he had “not come to bring peace but the sword” (Matthew 10:34), and that “he who does not have a sword should sell his cloak and buy one” (Luke 22:36). The same Quran that warns believers “if you kill one person it is as though you have killed all of humanity” (5:32) also commands them to “slay the idolaters wherever you find them” (9:5).


How a worshiper treats these conflicting commandments depends on the believer. If you are a violent misogynist, you will find plenty in your scriptures to justify your beliefs. If you are a peaceful, democratic feminist, you will also find justification in the scriptures for your point of view.

Yes, portions of the Bible do contain phrases that direct believers to 'live by the sword'. That said, there is a big difference at the present time between Christians and Muslims.

Thousands of acts of terror have been conducted over the last 10-15 years by Muslims acting in the name of Islam, resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands (most of them other Muslims).
How many acts of terror have been conducted by Christians in the name of Christinity during the same time period?

What their "Book" (Be it the Bible or the Koran) says is one thing. How the followers of the Book act on that is entirely another matter.

The Muslims in this country, some 3,000,000 last I heard, are not running around bombing buildings and killing people.

What a member of a suburban megachurch in Texas calls Christianity may be radically different from what an impoverished coffee picker in the hills of Guatemala calls Christianity. The cultural practices of a Saudi Muslim, when it comes to the role of women in society, are largely irrelevant to a Muslim in a more secular society like Turkey or Indonesia.

Members of the Islamic State are Muslims for the simple fact that they declare themselves to be so. Dismissing their profession of belief prevents us from dealing honestly with the inherent problems of reconciling religious doctrine with the realities of the modern world. But considering that most of its victims are also Muslims — as are most of the forces fighting and condemning the Islamic State — the group’s self-ascribed Islamic identity cannot be used to make any logical statement about Islam as a global religion.

At the same time, critics of religion must refrain from simplistic generalizations about people of faith. It is true that in many Muslim countries, women do not have the same rights as men. But that fact alone is not enough to declare Islam a religion that is intrinsically more patriarchal than Christianity or Judaism. (It’s worth noting that Muslim-majority nations have elected women leaders on several occasions, while some Americans still debate whether the United States is ready for a female president.)

I am presuming that you live in the United States.

I did not mean to imply that all Muslims are killers, any more than I meant to imply that no Christians are criminal.

There are Muslims that are killing people, either in the name of Islam, or possibly inspired by Islam.

Major Nidal Hasan had become radicalized, reportedly yelled Allahu Akbar!, then went on to kill 13 people and wounds 32 others at Fort Hood.

The Tsarnaev brothers exploded bombs at the Boston Marathon that killed 3 and wounded 264 others.

Worldwide, in September, there were 234 terrorist attacks carried out by Muslims, in 27 different countries, resulting in 2931 deaths, and 4539 injured. The majority of the victims were other Muslims. Source: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

I did not intend to make generalizations about Islam vs that of Christianity.
I do however suggest that one takes a look at the statistics (who are conducting these sorts of attacks? How many attacks are done by Muslism against Christians? How many are done by Christians against Muslims? How many are done by Muslims against other Muslims using Islam as a justification) and draw your own conclusions from that.

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RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa

Post by Twotribes »

When faced with political correctness facts are useless. Only what "feels" good.
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RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa

Post by GaryChildress »

Sorry if I misunderstood. I guess I'm just trying to be as fair as I can to people of another religious faith. Granted, maybe not all religions are equal. Different religions have different sets of beliefs and maybe Islam is a particularly problematic set (I don't know much about Islam). But there are a lot of people in the world who profess to be Muslims (like it or not). I just don't know what to do about that fact. I mean do we just fight them all or what? Do they need to convert to Christianity or Atheism instead? Is Islam the "great satan"? Or could this all be an example of the West demonizing Islam?

I mean, I don't know. I'm not an expert on such things but it sounds sort of suspect to me, maybe because I've internalized values such as "toleration" and respect for "differences". I grew up mostly in the 1970s and when I went to elementary school it was all about diversity and not being prejudice toward others and all that sort of stuff. This was obviously after WW2, one of the greatest calamities in human history where there were things like genocide and enormous destruction to civilization. So that's what I learned...that we're supposed to do everything we can to prevent another debacle like that from ever happening again. So I guess my question is what are we supposed to do about Muslims and all the acts of terror apparently coming from some people who claim to be adherents of their faith right now?
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RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa

Post by parusski »

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

When faced with political correctness facts are useless. Only what "feels" good.

+10. Political correctness is an evil all it's own.
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RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa

Post by GaryChildress »

ORIGINAL: parusski

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

When faced with political correctness facts are useless. Only what "feels" good.

+10. Political correctness is an evil all it's own.

Then maybe the world is just a game of "pick your evil". Or is categorizing a religion as evil such as Islam which represents a large swath of people in the world a virtue? I mean according to at least some Islamic extremists the West is the "great satan". I think they're misguided and wrong but do they represent all of Islam? Should we reciprocate and call Islam the "great satan"? Or I don't know, maybe it really is an evil religion. I don't know a great deal about Islam. [&:]
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RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa

Post by Twotribes »

Te Religion of Islam teaches hate murder and death to all non believers. Pretending otherwise is stupid.
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RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa

Post by danlongman »

In the immortal words of Arnaud Amalric:

"Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius."

God save us from righteous men.
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RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa

Post by GaryChildress »

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Te Religion of Islam teaches hate murder and death to all non believers. Pretending otherwise is stupid.

Are there passages in Islam which tell Muslims to believe that? Like I say, I'm not an expert on Islam. I mean other religions seem to also have a few parts that are controversial. The bible has a couple parts that talk about God commanding people to commit genocide but there are also parts which talk about "loving thy neighbor" and stuff like that.

Or maybe is it the case that there aren't enough passages in the texts of Islam emphasizing things like "love thy neighbor" and what not? So perhaps Muslims don't put enough emphasis on peace and good will and what not? I have a set of lectures from the Teaching Company on Islam (as well as Judaism and Christianity) so I guess I should make it a point to listen to them again but if I recall correctly the lectures sort of had the theme that Islam is not the "evil" many make it out to be. That it is largely misunderstood. If anyone else is interested in the lectures they can be purchased here:

http://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/ ... islam.html
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RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

The west is at war with Islam. And because of stupidity and ignorance we will probably lose.

So when are the millions of Muslims here going to be put in internment camps?

We are not at war with a religion.
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RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: chijohnaok

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: chijohnaok



Yes, portions of the Bible do contain phrases that direct believers to 'live by the sword'. That said, there is a big difference at the present time between Christians and Muslims.

Thousands of acts of terror have been conducted over the last 10-15 years by Muslims acting in the name of Islam, resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands (most of them other Muslims).
How many acts of terror have been conducted by Christians in the name of Christinity during the same time period?

What their "Book" (Be it the Bible or the Koran) says is one thing. How the followers of the Book act on that is entirely another matter.

The Muslims in this country, some 3,000,000 last I heard, are not running around bombing buildings and killing people.

What a member of a suburban megachurch in Texas calls Christianity may be radically different from what an impoverished coffee picker in the hills of Guatemala calls Christianity. The cultural practices of a Saudi Muslim, when it comes to the role of women in society, are largely irrelevant to a Muslim in a more secular society like Turkey or Indonesia.

Members of the Islamic State are Muslims for the simple fact that they declare themselves to be so. Dismissing their profession of belief prevents us from dealing honestly with the inherent problems of reconciling religious doctrine with the realities of the modern world. But considering that most of its victims are also Muslims — as are most of the forces fighting and condemning the Islamic State — the group’s self-ascribed Islamic identity cannot be used to make any logical statement about Islam as a global religion.

At the same time, critics of religion must refrain from simplistic generalizations about people of faith. It is true that in many Muslim countries, women do not have the same rights as men. But that fact alone is not enough to declare Islam a religion that is intrinsically more patriarchal than Christianity or Judaism. (It’s worth noting that Muslim-majority nations have elected women leaders on several occasions, while some Americans still debate whether the United States is ready for a female president.)

I am presuming that you live in the United States.

I did not mean to imply that all Muslims are killers, any more than I meant to imply that no Christians are criminal.

There are Muslims that are killing people, either in the name of Islam, or possibly inspired by Islam.

Major Nidal Hasan had become radicalized, reportedly yelled Allahu Akbar!, then went on to kill 13 people and wounds 32 others at Fort Hood.

The Tsarnaev brothers exploded bombs at the Boston Marathon that killed 3 and wounded 264 others.

Worldwide, in September, there were 234 terrorist attacks carried out by Muslims, in 27 different countries, resulting in 2931 deaths, and 4539 injured. The majority of the victims were other Muslims. Source: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

I did not intend to make generalizations about Islam vs that of Christianity.
I do however suggest that one takes a look at the statistics (who are conducting these sorts of attacks? How many attacks are done by Muslism against Christians? How many are done by Christians against Muslims? How many are done by Muslims against other Muslims using Islam as a justification) and draw your own conclusions from that.


Not going to blame Islam any more than I blame Christianity for the Holocaust.

A religion is not responsible for how people interpet it.

I don't care what faith a person claims to be. Whether it's a Ryder truck in Oklahoma City, a gas chamber in Aushwitz, a bomb going off during a marathon, some guy killing Amish kids in their school, a sarin attack in Tokyo, it makes no difference to the dead.
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RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa

Post by Capt. Harlock »

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Te Religion of Islam teaches hate murder and death to all non believers. Pretending otherwise is stupid.


Are there passages in Islam which tell Muslims to believe that?

I'm afraid there are things rather like it. There is one verse in the Qu'ran which declares enmity for all who do not follow the faith, and another which states that followers of Muhammad are "merciful to one another, but harsh to unbelievers."

But perhaps the most important doctrine is the three-part choice: all unbelievers are supposed to eventually covert to Islam, or accept "dhimmitude", second-class citizenship including, but not limited to payment, of the Jizya. If both these are refused, the Muslims are instructed to "seek Allah's help and fight them". Note the Qu'ran specifies this for polytheists, but the hard-line Islamic doctrinaires have expanded this to cover virtually all non-Muslims.

A final thought: the Qu'ran, like the Bible, has some contradictory passages. (e.g., the fruit of the vine is praised in one verse, but alcohol is banned in another.) To resolve this, the "Doctrine of Abrogation" has been formulated, which states that the verses revealed later override the ones revealed earlier. (the timeline is not easy to know, because the Qu'ran is ordered by the size of the chapters, largest to smallest, rather than chronologically.) Unfortunately, the later verses tend to be the more aggressive ones, following the arc of Muhammad's career from preacher to warlord.
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RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: parusski

Political correctness is an evil all it's own.
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RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa

Post by GaryChildress »

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock
quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Te Religion of Islam teaches hate murder and death to all non believers. Pretending otherwise is stupid.


Are there passages in Islam which tell Muslims to believe that?

I'm afraid there are things rather like it. There is one verse in the Qu'ran which declares enmity for all who do not follow the faith, and another which states that followers of Muhammad are "merciful to one another, but harsh to unbelievers."

But perhaps the most important doctrine is the three-part choice: all unbelievers are supposed to eventually covert to Islam, or accept "dhimmitude", second-class citizenship including, but not limited to payment, of the Jizya. If both these are refused, the Muslims are instructed to "seek Allah's help and fight them". Note the Qu'ran specifies this for polytheists, but the hard-line Islamic doctrinaires have expanded this to cover virtually all non-Muslims.

A final thought: the Qu'ran, like the Bible, has some contradictory passages. (e.g., the fruit of the vine is praised in one verse, but alcohol is banned in another.) To resolve this, the "Doctrine of Abrogation" has been formulated, which states that the verses revealed later override the ones revealed earlier. (the timeline is not easy to know, because the Qu'ran is ordered by the size of the chapters, largest to smallest, rather than chronologically.) Unfortunately, the later verses tend to be the more aggressive ones, following the arc of Muhammad's career from preacher to warlord.

Thanks for a good synopsis Capt. Harlock. Another forum member also PMed me some verses from the Qu'ran to demonstrate the point he was making in this thread. The verses he PMed me are definitely militant toward "non believers".

It sounds to me like Islam is probably a bit complimentary to what some call "liberation theology" in Christianity, only just more militant. Unfortunately the more we kick at people who believe in such theology the more it validates their beliefs. I could certainly be wrong but I would think the best thing to do is just ignore the theological aspects of it (singling people out because of religious affiliation) and just address the crimes they commit. Otherwise we get into a matter of presuming people "guilty" who haven't really done anything destructive, only been misguided.

I don't think being misguided or mistaken is a crime so long as one doesn't do something destructive based upon the mistaken belief. Maybe that's just me though. As I say, I went to elementary school (probably some of the most formative years of life) in a time and place where there was a lot of concern about prejudice and discrimination. The 1970s were pretty fresh after the American Civil Rights movement, which itself picked up a lot of steam coming out of WW2 where genocide and other horrible racially based crimes happened.

I mean obviously the Qu'ran is no gem. I don't know if that warrants "profiling" people because of their religious affiliation or not. It's sort of like, do we discriminate against people who don't wear nice clothes in public and frown a lot? Such people may seem more likely than others to be the ones to commit certain types of crimes. OTOH, is it a crime to frown or not wear nice clothes in public? And how far do we extend guilt? Does guilt extend to when one is born and the genetic constitution of an individual (presuming that there are indeed genetic qualities that predispose a person to "deviant" behavior)? If someone blows up a school full of innocent children, that is a horrendous crime. But it's a crime by an individual, not by a group of people based upon their religious affiliation. If a Christian blows up an abortion clinic I assume I won't be rounded up by the police and profiled if I am a Christian too.

Just my thoughts on the matter.
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RE: What a day in the city of Ottawa

Post by Orm »

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Willful ignorance is stupid. Islam TEACHES that only Islam is allowed as Government and religion. It teaches that killing unbelievers is to be done, it teaches that lying to unbelievers is acceptable. It's holy book teaches war and murder of unbelievers and the end result is the death or conversion of all non Muslims. Currently thgere are two schools of thought on how that will come to pass. One is to out breed us and win by assimilating our cultures through immigration and conversion by numbers, The other is that holy war must be waged to destroy all unbelievers.

Failure to understand your enemies and the threats they pose is a fatal flaw and weakness.
This goes to far. [:(]

I am sad to say that I think this thread should be locked!
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