I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game.
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- geofflambert
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RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game.
That's right, the AI really puts it to you. If you can't take it you'd probably bail in a PBEM.
- KenchiSulla
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RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game.
Drama?
AKA Cannonfodder
"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor
"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game.
You know you can reload an auto saved game right? And it is just like it never happened [:D]
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game.
On the other hand, I had a bombardment and aircombat battle group encounter a large but poorly escorted Japanese invasion fleet by chance. Oh the glorious carnage! I'll bet the AI wishes it knew how to do save and reload[:D]
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game.
ORIGINAL: chazz
Just lost a whole carrier group because they'd rather bomb transports than an enemy carrier group. Which they knew was there.
This is retarded.
I'm done.
The easy thing is to quit and go home. You're really not affecting anyone but yourself. Hence, the ridicule you're getting.
Understand during Coral Sea IJN fliers reported they sunk a carrier and battleship when they
bombed USS Neosho and USS Sims.
Because the supreme commander knows the carriers are out there doesn't mean the fliers see them
or recognize what they're attacking.
If you're a relatively new player (or even a player like myself that forgets sometimes) I'm guessing their may have been some stones you left un turned...
Details like what was the air ratings of the commanders involved, what kind of search did you
have on the area, what was fatigue levels, was enough escorts involved, are enemy forces under a cloud bank or other factors...
There are times just poor luck plays out and you have to hope next go 'round lady luck shines on you.
Maybe you'll give it another go when the impact wear's off. Keep in mind this is a very rewarding game and there are some like myself still learning and
refining gameplay and I like others bought this the day it was released 5 years ago.
Best of luck![:)]
"There’s no such thing as a bitter person who keeps the bitterness to himself.” ~ Erwin Lutzer
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game.
Search skill of pilots invovledORIGINAL: SuluSea
ORIGINAL: chazz
Just lost a whole carrier group because they'd rather bomb transports than an enemy carrier group. Which they knew was there.
This is retarded.
I'm done.
The easy thing is to quit and go home. You're really not affecting anyone but yourself. Hence, the ridicule you're getting.
Understand during Coral Sea IJN fliers reported they sunk a carrier and battleship when they
bombed USS Neosho and USS Sims.
Because the supreme commander knows the carriers are out there doesn't mean the fliers see them
or recognize what they're attacking.
If you're a relatively new player (or even a player like myself that forgets sometimes) I'm guessing their may have been some stones you left un turned...
Details like what was the air ratings of the commanders involved, what kind of search did you
have on the area, what was fatigue levels, was enough escorts involved, are enemy forces under a cloud bank or other factors...
There are times just poor luck plays out and you have to hope next go 'round lady luck shines on you.
Maybe you'll give it another go when the impact wear's off. Keep in mind this is a very rewarding game and there are some like myself still learning and
refining gameplay and I like others bought this the day it was released 5 years ago.
Best of luck![:)]
weather over target hex(s)
distance to relative targets
Gary's random-ator
just a few more to add on to what sulu said ....
Pax
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RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game.
Ha! and of course it NEVER happened IRL that a pilot/squadron leader would attack anything other than the perfect highest value target in range!! (can you hear the scornful sarcasm???).
Just because the game emulates reality (rather than doing exactly what you wanted it to do) does not make it 'retarded'. Actually, that's what makes it fun!
Hoping you stick with it a few more turns!
Just because the game emulates reality (rather than doing exactly what you wanted it to do) does not make it 'retarded'. Actually, that's what makes it fun!
Hoping you stick with it a few more turns!
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game.
This game takes a certain amount of patience. Some have it, Like all of the above responders, and some don't. If I gave up the first time I lost 3 or 4 CV's in a single action, I would of quite before buying this game 5 or so years ago and thrown WITP in the trash. Restart, Replay, Reload. Never give up....GP
Gotta Have The Stones Man.[;)]
Gotta Have The Stones Man.[;)]
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RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game.
ORIGINAL: chazz
Just lost a whole carrier group because they'd rather bomb transports than an enemy carrier group. Which they knew was there.
This is retarded.
I'm done.
If you are not going to need it anymore, can I have your computer?
I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.
Sigismund of Luxemburg
Sigismund of Luxemburg
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game.
This game is not for everyone.
Sometimes strikes hit the wrong target. And sometimes someone loses a carrier battle spectacularly. Both happened in the real war.
Bill
Sometimes strikes hit the wrong target. And sometimes someone loses a carrier battle spectacularly. Both happened in the real war.
Bill
WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game.
Understand during Coral Sea IJN fliers reported they sunk a carrier and battleship when they
bombed USS Neosho and USS Sims.
I recall the story that at the end of the first day of the Battle of the Coral Sea one or more Japanese planes mistakenly attempted to land on USN carriers!
Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game.
I've only played against the AI, mainly due to my work schedule, and I always save a turn before I run it. That way, if I get battered during a turn, I can always replay the turn after making some changes that will, hopefully, avoid the out come of the previous turn. I know it might seem gamey to some of ya'll, but I've only done this a few times. Besides, I've found that sometimes, no matter how many times I'd replay a turn, the outcome is usually the same (or worse), especially when it comes to naval engagements.
John E. McCallum
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game.
I think some players have a hard time getting used to the randomness of things in WItp. As a carrier battle was mentioned (though it also relates to ground combat in a degree), well, if you rerun the turn (of course changing some small details) you can often get results ranging from total defeat to total victory. I know this also happened in real life as well due to a million different factors the commanders could not predict, and I have gotten used to it in Witp, but I can understand how some players may get really angry because of it.
In many strategy games you can more or less predict the battle outcome. There is, of course some variety, but it is not as drastic as it can be in Witp and your whole war effort is not as luck dependant as here. This is especially infuriating while playing a PBEM game, when you plan everything to the last detail only to get the shaft... Not because you screwed up, but simply because of a dice roll.
Yes, this is all pretty realistic and I realize that, just saying that accepting certain battle outcomes, especially if you're engaged in a few months/years of playing a PBEM can be really difficult. Knowing that your game suddenly got a lot more difficult because you lost your whole carrier fleet not because of something you did wrong but simply because of bad rolls (weather, reaction, whatever), and that if you only moved that one squadron back in Japan to a different base you could have just as well won that carrier battle in the southern Pacific can be especially daunting sometimes...
In many strategy games you can more or less predict the battle outcome. There is, of course some variety, but it is not as drastic as it can be in Witp and your whole war effort is not as luck dependant as here. This is especially infuriating while playing a PBEM game, when you plan everything to the last detail only to get the shaft... Not because you screwed up, but simply because of a dice roll.
Yes, this is all pretty realistic and I realize that, just saying that accepting certain battle outcomes, especially if you're engaged in a few months/years of playing a PBEM can be really difficult. Knowing that your game suddenly got a lot more difficult because you lost your whole carrier fleet not because of something you did wrong but simply because of bad rolls (weather, reaction, whatever), and that if you only moved that one squadron back in Japan to a different base you could have just as well won that carrier battle in the southern Pacific can be especially daunting sometimes...
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game.
ORIGINAL: Endy
Knowing that your game suddenly got a lot more difficult because you lost your whole carrier fleet not because of something you did wrong but simply because of bad rolls (weather, reaction, whatever), and that if you only moved that one squadron back in Japan to a different base you could have just as well won that carrier battle in the southern Pacific can be especially daunting sometimes...
If you rerun a battle turn 10 times without changing anything, lose 7, draw 2, and win 1, then you definitely did something wrong - or should not have engaged at all. If players enter battles on 50/50 odds that things can go awry and a high amount of factors beyond their control, to express surprise that 50% of them end up on the low end of line and get their ass handed on a plate is a human trait I will always fail to understand.
Nearly all spectacular CV battle loss threads on this forum, where a lot of angry tears are shed about the randomness of the results and the absence of predictability, fall into one of the above categories.
A CV battle lost in a situation where objectively every factor that can be influenced by the player points to victory, and every factor beyond his influence is minimized, is a rare event indeed.
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game.
ORIGINAL: LoBaron
If you rerun a battle turn 10 times without changing anything, lose 7, draw 2, and win 1, then you definitely did something wrong - or should not have engaged at all. If players enter battles on 50/50 odds that things can go awry and a high amount of factors beyond their control, to express surprise that 50% of them end up on the low end of line and get their ass handed on a plate is a human trait I will always fail to understand.
Nearly all spectacular CV battle loss threads on this forum, where a lot of angry tears are shed about the randomness of the results and the absence of predictability, fall into one of the above categories.
A CV battle lost in a situation where objectively every factor that can be influenced by the player points to victory, and every factor beyond his influence is minimized, is a rare event indeed.
The point is, even if you had the odds to win 7 times out of 10, and then the 1 result that is a complete disaster rolls, then it's difficult for some to accept.
I do accept it as it's a part of the game, but some people are used to more predictable results when planning stuff especially when a significant amount of time spent is involved. It can really put someone off when he rolls a 1 despite his best planning.
In some other games, when you have better odds than the opponent, the % chance of a really disastrous result is minimized. Sure, you can have a bad roll but as long as you did not enter a "fair" fight then the result can be a loss but nothing major. In Witp, it can be anything, from a total victory with no losses to a total defeat with your fleet on the bottom of the ocean and the enemy unscratched no matter the odds. And sure, you can win 70, 80, 90% of the time if you plan it right, but if that kind of amplitude of results is applied then that kind of randomness is difficult to accept by some.
To sum up, it's not the amount of times you will win or lose out of 10, it's the span of possible different results (even if low chance) you get no matter the odds that puts some people off, even if they can rarely happen. It also concerns SAG engagements and land battles to some degree, not only CV fight though these seem to get noticed most for obvious reasons.
I got used to it and even like it at times since it gives it the kind of thrilling unpredictabily in every game and is pretty close to what happened in real life, but sometimes you just sigh at the result and go on because what other choice you have? Oh, and I'm not saying this should be changed of course, just playing devil's advocate and trying to understand other points of view.
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game.
ORIGINAL: Endy
In some other games, when you have better odds than the opponent, the % chance of a really disastrous result is minimized. Sure, you can have a bad roll but as long as you did not enter a "fair" fight then the result can be a loss but nothing major. In Witp, it can be anything, from a total victory with no losses to a total defeat with your fleet on the bottom of the ocean and the enemy unscratched no matter the odds. And sure, you can win 70, 80, 90% of the time if you plan it right, but if that kind of amplitude of results is applied then that kind of randomness is difficult to accept by some.
And this is the part of your post - as in your first post - that I strongly disagree with.
What you attribute to 'some other games' is exactly like it works in WitP.
The only difference is that the number and interaction of variables are far more complex than in most other games. This results in many inexperienced - and not seldom veteran - players to THINK they know what the odds are and what the result should look like, while in fact they only know a fraction of the story. They take the optimistic approach, take a lot more risk than they would ever admit, and then wonder about the high variation of their battle results.
Just as often they are ignorant of the capabilities of their opponents and his options to react to their battle setup, which might lead to defeat even with seemingly superior forces.
Just as often people accept battle by defining the top 20% success result as the mission goal, and that´s a gamble and not a proper risk assessment.
Only because there are unknowns that might be beyond a player´s influence does not mean one cannot plan for them. Contingency planning and is what only a very small percentage of player do. The majority stick to their 'I did everything right so the game failed me' stance, and both fail to understand and improve.
I am aware that you are trying to show why people think this way, but TBH I do not have much sympathy for it.
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game.
While I agree that some of the whining comes from lack of knowledge of how the game works or lack of preparation, there are genuine situations, and quite a lot of them, where luck plays a major role. And it can be very easily checked by simply replaying the turn. I did my share of it with my opponent who was also interested in how stuff could play out with a different dice roll and in a few different scenarios - carrier strike, SAG battle etc. - the results varied from catastrophical to really good ones depending on a dice roll.
And I don't agree that you can plan for everything. Despite your best skills there are always factors you have absolutely no control over. Weather is just one example - absolutely no control over it and no way to plan or prepare for it because the forecasts are not a reliable tool to predict it. And just this one factor can lead to a MAJOR difference in results, for example a carrier battle or a surface action depending if you get nice weather or a thunderstorm in the target hex or hexes. And yes, it's just a matter of how lucky you are with the roll despite everything else you did.
I can name a few other factors but I believe you get my point. Yes, this kind of randomness in some factors is pretty realistic and true to life and most of us have learned to accept them. However, some players are used to something very different and to games, even pretty realistic ones, where the battle outcome just can't vary so much depending on just one factor. Many games, even the more complex or realistic ones, let you predict your chances very well, with only slight variation of the final result. Of course, you might argue that this is more similar to chess than real war but some players react very badly when this kind of control is taken away from them.
I'll say again, yes, WITP has got most of these random things right and yes, stuff you can't control like weather could play a major role in a sea battle and shape history and should do the same in game. The problems start when you realize that if you moved that one squadron somewhere on the West coast or in Japan, then that carrier battle could've been just as easily as it has been lost. And like I said, some other wargames have randomness confined to a much bigger degree and you can predict the results of your actions MUCH better without the wild disparity of results based on a random dice roll.
And some players react histerically to that and have a really hard time accepting it in Witp. Then again, this game is just not for everyone and you need to learn to accept it as it is.
And I don't agree that you can plan for everything. Despite your best skills there are always factors you have absolutely no control over. Weather is just one example - absolutely no control over it and no way to plan or prepare for it because the forecasts are not a reliable tool to predict it. And just this one factor can lead to a MAJOR difference in results, for example a carrier battle or a surface action depending if you get nice weather or a thunderstorm in the target hex or hexes. And yes, it's just a matter of how lucky you are with the roll despite everything else you did.
I can name a few other factors but I believe you get my point. Yes, this kind of randomness in some factors is pretty realistic and true to life and most of us have learned to accept them. However, some players are used to something very different and to games, even pretty realistic ones, where the battle outcome just can't vary so much depending on just one factor. Many games, even the more complex or realistic ones, let you predict your chances very well, with only slight variation of the final result. Of course, you might argue that this is more similar to chess than real war but some players react very badly when this kind of control is taken away from them.
I'll say again, yes, WITP has got most of these random things right and yes, stuff you can't control like weather could play a major role in a sea battle and shape history and should do the same in game. The problems start when you realize that if you moved that one squadron somewhere on the West coast or in Japan, then that carrier battle could've been just as easily as it has been lost. And like I said, some other wargames have randomness confined to a much bigger degree and you can predict the results of your actions MUCH better without the wild disparity of results based on a random dice roll.
And some players react histerically to that and have a really hard time accepting it in Witp. Then again, this game is just not for everyone and you need to learn to accept it as it is.
- geofflambert
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RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game.
ORIGINAL: afspret
I've only played against the AI, mainly due to my work schedule, and I always save a turn before I run it. That way, if I get battered during a turn, I can always replay the turn after making some changes that will, hopefully, avoid the out come of the previous turn. I know it might seem gamey to some of ya'll, but I've only done this a few times. Besides, I've found that sometimes, no matter how many times I'd replay a turn, the outcome is usually the same (or worse), especially when it comes to naval engagements.
The AI is "gamey". Don't be kind to it. Destroy it anyway you can.
- geofflambert
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- Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:18 pm
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RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game.
Weather happens. I think it's had a large impact on most of my carrier actions, mostly in my favor. There are thunderstorms over my CVs, so the enemy can't find them but blue sky over his. No one can know exactly what will happen, and I believe the weather is fixed and won't change if you rerun. There was a historical battle (forget which one) where the Enterprise was operating with another CV (in the same hex in game terms) but was hidden by a squall when the attack came and the other CV took all of it.
RE: I'm done with this ridiculous time vampire of a game.
ORIGINAL: witpqs
Understand during Coral Sea IJN fliers reported they sunk a carrier and battleship when they
bombed USS Neosho and USS Sims.
I recall the story that at the end of the first day of the Battle of the Coral Sea one or more Japanese planes mistakenly attempted to land on USN carriers!
I read that also. LOVE THAT FOG OF WAR....GP
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