WitE 1.08 Change Log

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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hfarrish
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RE: WitE 1.08 Change Log

Post by hfarrish »

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morvael
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RE: WitE 1.08 Change Log

Post by morvael »

I don't think there will be clicking involved. Certainly if you want to push some things you have the manual update available. It's just that units in reserve or at the rear get the first chance to swap/upgrade. But those at the front can do it as well. And there is a special protection added so that no aircraft will change to U-2VS using the automated procedure, so it's safer for the ShAPs on Il-2 now, and there is no need to kill U-2VS factories :)

Current morale arc was listed in the manual with updates. Biggest difference is lower morale in summer 42. And lower morale at start in 1941. In turn morale 60 is obtained faster in 1944.
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RE: WitE 1.08 Change Log

Post by hfarrish »

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Peltonx
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RE: WitE 1.08 Change Log

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: Oshawott
HQ build up was changed to become part of the normal supply system, instead of being a separate entity.
During supply phase those units are eligible to replenish their stocks over the usual 100% by 25% plus the amount of their build up bonus multiplied by 0.75 (rounding up).

Morvael, this looks like a very interesting rule change. However, I am not sure if I understand it correctly. When exactly do the units receive fuel/supplies after a buildup? At the end of the other players turn?

No muling and the change to HQBU has good and bad points from GHC side of things.

I tested HQBU allot and you can do build ups and not get max MP's, its very important as GHC not to move stuff
( HQ's and AB's) unless you have to the first 3-4 turns.

The same dog chain from .7 applies but more so.

U can rest your panzers for a turn then the following turn do a HQBU. You have allot of fuel and can zoom zoom for a turn and then have some fuel for the following turn, but then your screwed.

Your panzers are way past railheads and unlike before don't get jack for fuel.
Playing vs AI I had 1 PA out of fuel for 4 turns ( 1 MP ), I still then had to take another turn moving them back. The port exploit has been nerfed, but thankfully Romanian can't be heheh
So they were usless for 6 full turns.
VS a human player they were toast.

The fort change is big.

I had to rethink allot of stuff. Turns 1-4 might feel the same but after that its a different game.

One huge change is the air war.
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RE: WitE 1.08 Change Log

Post by MechFO »

ORIGINAL: morvael

I have the honor to present you with WitE 1.08 change log. It has doubled in size since my previous posts with change log statistics, so it's nearly like a solid book now. You may wish to skip "specific changes" sections, as they were generated automatically and contain every single change made to the data files, which makes a very dry reading. Other sections were written by hand, and should be more interesting. If there are any spelling or grammar errors, it's my fault (because I'm not a native speaker). I'm sorry, you'll have to endure these.

WitE Changelog in numbers:
- 144 new features
- 63 bug fixes
- 45 scenario changes
- 5 general device changes
- 130 specific device changes
- 13 general ground element changes
- 392 specific ground element changes
- 12 general aircraft changes
- 293 specific aircraft changes
- 7 general TOE changes
- 93 specific TOE changes
- 2 general leader changes
- 24 specific leader changes
- 77 pages

Awesome work and reading through the first part of the notes there are many sensible changes, especially in the replacement/logistics system which I hope make it into WITW or at least WITE 2.

Regarding morale, is it feasible or even theoretically possible to tie it to certain loss thresholds? Right now I don't see much upside to a German player going for force conservation, while the Soviet player should also have the possibility to benefit from a less disastrous 41, early 42.


Is the below WAD?

[43]Elefant,,upgrade changed from[42]Jagdpanther to 350,factory upgrade changed from 0 to 350.

Everywhere else except the 10/4 SP Flak a number at the place of 350 seems to be associated with a device name.

EDIT: Scrap that, see it in a few places, but leaving the above anyway just in case it might be a bug. I'm also seeing several symbol changes that don't seem to make sense, f.e. the symbol being changed to 0 and the super heavy classification seems to be missing in at least one case. I'm taking notes as I go along so if you want I can post the list numbers.

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RE: WitE 1.08 Change Log

Post by M60A3TTS »

The key change in all of this is dropping Soviet morale to 40 in the Summer of 42. If the Axis player doesn't take Moscow in 1941, he has a second chance in 42. If the Axis player is close to Moscow but fails to take it, that seems the moment for the Soviet player to invest in a good number of his own fort units (weaker though they may be, it's still better than nothing) to prepare for defense the following summer. If the Axis doesn't win by the end of 1942, he's in trouble. The increased cost in forts will be more challenging certainly. How much more remains to be seen.

Leningrad seems to be back on the endangered species list.

Regiment SU costs from 1 to 2 and the reduced effectiveness of Soviet AA means there will be little point investing in those units, even though the organic AA support disappears from the rifle divisions in late 42. The Soviet player won't need as many sapper regiments to break down fort zones so the increased AP cost for those becomes something of a wash.

Reduced costs against the max load for air units means less taxing of the truck and supply for the VVS, and subsequently the Red Army. On the subject of the VVS, I would have liked to see a change where the AI could be programmed or told to stop building air units at some point in time. By wars end, the AI creates enough units for the Soviet to field 700-800 regiments which is pure overkill. My own experience is by the end of 1942, the VVS doesn't need more units. Just let the aircraft pools fill and replace/upgrade where necessary.

Increased command capacity for shock and guards army... ok, sounds good. Allows adding another corps to them.

1 week delay in factory evacuations will hurt the Soviet player obviously. Results will vary. And once again the Soviet arms multiplier takes a hit. Yes, so do the Germans but the Soviet cut is deeper.

"Super heavy artillery" impacting forts to a greater extent. I wonder if the 280mm siege mortar will be making a comeback. [8D]

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RE: WitE 1.08 Change Log

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

The key change in all of this is dropping Soviet morale to 40 in the Summer of 42. If the Axis player doesn't take Moscow in 1941, he has a second chance in 42. If the Axis player is close to Moscow but fails to take it, that seems the moment for the Soviet player to invest in a good number of his own fort units (weaker though they may be, it's still better than nothing) to prepare for defense the following summer. If the Axis doesn't win by the end of 1942, he's in trouble. The increased cost in forts will be more challenging certainly. How much more remains to be seen.

I like the morale change, I think it creates just the right situation for the summer of 1942. The flip side to Moscow being at risk is the higher value of level 3 forts. As such, as historically, it may well tempt a German player but the fortifications around the city may force them to go somewhere else looking for a decisive battle?

The last two patches have gone a long way to ensuring that it is 1942 not 1941 that becomes the key point of decision.
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RE: WitE 1.08 Change Log

Post by Denniss »

To answer some questions/observations:
If you see devices or upgrades changed to a number without associated name it indicates a new device/element.
Symbol changed to 0 = has it's own symbol now

The AI does still build air units but it's more focussed on upgrading existing units than to build new new units over and over. With lots of available units it may still build some with new a/c types but prefers to upgrade/swap-out outdated a/c (no I-15/16 forever).

AFAIR reduced soviet AA was a bugfix + many soviet guns had an effect rating 3 times of the german 88mm gun, if that rating was used it explained the huge axis air losses to AAA.

Increased Sov support units cost by size should be logic - the larger the size the more you pay. Will most likely not stop the sapper regt spam of human players, it just takes longer to fill HQ/Coprs with them.
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schascha
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RE: WitE 1.08 Change Log

Post by schascha »

thx for this amazing work guys [&o][&o][&o]
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RE: WitE 1.08 Change Log

Post by gradenko2k »

ORIGINAL: hfarrish
I meant what is the current Sov morale arc (for comparison purposes)?

According to the current amended WITE manual:
Jan-1941: 50, with a reduction of 1 point per month until it hits 44 in Dec-1941
Jan-1942: 45
Jan-1943: 46, with an increase of 1 point per month until it hits 57 in Dec-1944
Jan-1944: 58, with a continued increase of 1 point per month until it hits 60 in Mar-1944
Jan-1945: 60

According to these patch notes:
Jan-1941: 40, with an increase to 45 by Jul-1941 until Dec-1941
Jan-1942: 45 until Mar-1942, with a reduction to 40 from Apr-1942 to Sep-1942, then an increase to 45 from Oct-1942 to Dec-1942
Jan-1943: 50, with an increase to 55 in Jul-1943 to Dec-1943
Jan-1944: 60
Jan-1945: 60

I made a graph:

Image
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RE: WitE 1.08 Change Log

Post by BletchleyGeek »

This is an amazing achievement. My most sincere congratulations and thanks to all the team!
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RE: WitE 1.08 Change Log

Post by MechFO »

ORIGINAL: Denniss

To answer some questions/observations:
If you see devices or upgrades changed to a number without associated name it indicates a new device/element.
Symbol changed to 0 = has it's own symbol now

Thanks for clearing that up.

Further I noted:

a missing super heavy classification for a 240mm,
missing super heavy classification the the German and Axis minor 210mm in general (feature description says 210mm and above)

did the railway guns get their SH classification, I don't see any listed?

the 305mm and 355mm seem to be treated as SP artillery for fuel use but were towed?

quite a few artillery symbol changes don't much sense to me, are these WAD?
f.e.
[111] 122mm Howitzer symbol changed from [74] Infantry Gun to [109] 75mm Field Gun
[112] 150mm Howitzer symbol changed from [108] 150mm Field Gun to [109] 75mm Field Gun
[328] 149mm Howitzer symbol changed from [319] 82mm Mortar to [323] 75mm Mountain Gun
[788] 82mm Mortar symbol changed from [784] 76mm Infantry Gun to [729] 107mm Mortar

Some Axis minor AT guns get an accuracy nerf. Is this to simulate training etc. above and beyond the experience modifier?


What does the "effect" do? Destruction chance upon a hit? The what are the Ground and Air ratings for?

Last but not least, now that Artillery build % can be decreased, and the Germans should suffer from it, how about restoring the 42-43 Division to their paper Artillery TOE, so that the player benefits from avoiding a Winter offensive and Stalingrad redux.
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RE: WitE 1.08 Change Log

Post by pzgndr »

The manual is also being updated as I understand. Could the Tutorial Manual also get a rewrite? There have been a lot of changes in the past several years and more with this new patch, plus there are some new strategy perspectives and player tips that could be added. It would be helpful for some of us trying to get back into the game again, as well as any new players getting started.
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RE: WitE 1.08 Change Log

Post by Peltonx »

National Morale and morale in general is not a hard wired stat.

Just because NM is 60 does not mean a units morale is 60.
GHC morale dropping over time does not mean most of the GHC morale will be 60 in Nov 44 ect.

With good leaders a units morale can easly stay 10 pts above whatever the NM is for that time frame.
Its about winning.

I have seen GHC players NM average per units in the low 60's high 50's by mid 44 and it was stuck at 70.

And we have all seen SHC army's stuck around 50 in late 44.

+/- 10 NM is based on winning and losing(player skill or exploits like 1v1=2v1) which is far more then a setting.
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RE: WitE 1.08 Change Log

Post by smokindave34 »

ORIGINAL: morvael
ORIGINAL: hfarrish


Love the changes related to forts and the limits on fort construction - hopefully the death of WW1. Increased reserve activations (particularly on offense) should also be huge.

On National Morale - what are the existing parameters for the Soviets? Also...Germans really were stuck at 70 for the entire game in the current version? That decline to 55 will be huge.

Especially with fort game setting below 100... Things start to get interesting. But where you build up to level 3 (LG?), such position will be protected from panzers due to dense terrain bonus, and infantry will have to do the job.

Yes, Germany should be severely weakened at the end of the war. The game was balanced with the bug existing, thus the balance will now change considerably (I'd say 41 is slightly pro-Axis now, 42 much more pro-Axis, but then things go downhill for them fast). That's why this must be a public beta for a long time - we need more people playing to discover new balance, it was impossible to do it in private development group only. Or you would see the patch in 2016. Sudden death scenarios may be especially dangerous now, so I suggest normal GC is safer choice.

New Soviet morale is listed somewhere in the log.

Good thing is - anyone can mod this now to some extent (per-country per-year) in scenario parameters.

I have two games in progress as axis in 1943, if I or my opponents update to 1.08 will I see the negative effects on the axis (things going down hill fast). I'm afraid if I update I'll see the negative consequences without having seen the advantages the axis receives in '41/42.
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RE: WitE 1.08 Change Log

Post by hfarrish »

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RE: WitE 1.08 Change Log

Post by Denniss »

ORIGINAL: MechFO
Further I noted:

a missing super heavy classification for a 240mm,
missing super heavy classification the the German and Axis minor 210mm in general (feature description says 210mm and above)

did the railway guns get their SH classification, I don't see any listed?

the 305mm and 355mm seem to be treated as SP artillery for fuel use but were towed?

quite a few artillery symbol changes don't much sense to me, are these WAD?
f.e.
[111] 122mm Howitzer symbol changed from [74] Infantry Gun to [109] 75mm Field Gun
[112] 150mm Howitzer symbol changed from [108] 150mm Field Gun to [109] 75mm Field Gun
[328] 149mm Howitzer symbol changed from [319] 82mm Mortar to [323] 75mm Mountain Gun
[788] 82mm Mortar symbol changed from [784] 76mm Infantry Gun to [729] 107mm Mortar

Some Axis minor AT guns get an accuracy nerf. Is this to simulate training etc. above and beyond the experience modifier?


What does the "effect" do? Destruction chance upon a hit? The what are the Ground and Air ratings for?

Last but not least, now that Artillery build % can be decreased, and the Germans should suffer from it, how about restoring the 42-43 Division to their paper Artillery TOE, so that the player benefits from avoiding a Winter offensive and Stalingrad redux.
The super-heavy cut is at ~250+mm, they have very high fuel use because they are supposed to be transported in parts/on multiple trailers.
All guns are changed to a single symbol per class and nation.
There should not be an accuracy nerv for Axis minor guns, some had stats not matching their german counterpart or some new historical data required a data change for these guns.
Don't know exactly how effect is used during Flak but I assume it's related to blast effect and mangled with other antiair values.
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RE: WitE 1.08 Change Log

Post by MechFO »


Thanks for clearing that up.
ORIGINAL: Denniss

ORIGINAL: MechFO
The super-heavy cut is at ~250+mm,

Doesn't make sense to me since already the 240mm sized ones were considered specialized very heavy artillery. You also see it with gun and shell weights. Either way please change the final patch notes accordingly, otherwise this is bound to cause confusion.
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RE: WitE 1.08 Change Log

Post by Denniss »

SH vs H depends on more than just caliber, I wouldn't call a 240mm howitzer with short range a SH gun, a 203mm gun with long barrel (like on heavy cruisers) could be considered SH due to combination of rather big calibler + long range. But anyway the cut-off area is rather fluid and we had to made a separation somewhere so we don't mix the huge guns with rather smallish guns.
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RE: WitE 1.08 Change Log

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: hfarrish

ORIGINAL: smokindave34

ORIGINAL: morvael



Especially with fort game setting below 100... Things start to get interesting. But where you build up to level 3 (LG?), such position will be protected from panzers due to dense terrain bonus, and infantry will have to do the job.

Yes, Germany should be severely weakened at the end of the war. The game was balanced with the bug existing, thus the balance will now change considerably (I'd say 41 is slightly pro-Axis now, 42 much more pro-Axis, but then things go downhill for them fast). That's why this must be a public beta for a long time - we need more people playing to discover new balance, it was impossible to do it in private development group only. Or you would see the patch in 2016. Sudden death scenarios may be especially dangerous now, so I suggest normal GC is safer choice.

New Soviet morale is listed somewhere in the log.

Good thing is - anyone can mod this now to some extent (per-country per-year) in scenario parameters.

I have two games in progress as axis in 1943, if I or my opponents update to 1.08 will I see the negative effects on the axis (things going down hill fast). I'm afraid if I update I'll see the negative consequences without having seen the advantages the axis receives in '41/42.

As fun as that might be for me, I think I read that the two versions don't work together - not sure what this implies for existing games.
Doesn't make sense to me since already the 240mm sized ones were considered specialized very heavy artillery. You also see it with gun and shell weights. Either way please change the final patch notes accordingly, otherwise this is bound to cause confusion.

This has always been true

Finish any on going games under the old version.

Patching in .8 is not going to fix any damage done by older versions that caused the collapse of the german OOB caused by swapping errors

ALL games before .15 were preprogramed to cause the collapse of GHC in 44 because of errors.

.8 is probably as close to perfect as we will get - which means players skills determine out come not errors bugs and exploits

Beta Tester WitW & WitE
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