submarine bombardment

[guctony]

would it be possible to make some changes to game to make submarine bombardment possible. It could add great flavour.

[GreyJoy]

mmmm... don't think so. But you better ask in the mod forum...there you can find people who could give u a good answer[;)]

[Alfred]

Not with existing code.  It would need the existing submarine routines to be completely thrown out and completely rewritten from scratch.  Then the other naval routines would need to be tweaked to accommodate the rewritten submarine code.
 
An awful lot of work for practically no game benefit.  It wouldn't even add any additional flavour.  There are far more practicable changes to the submarine routines that would merit far more serious consideration.
 
In an abstraction which is more than 5 years old, no dev is going to spend even 5 seconds looking at things which hardly ever occurred in the war and even then produced no benefit to the overall war effort.
 
Alfred

[guctony]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Not with existing code.  It would need the existing submarine routines to be completely thrown out and completely rewritten from scratch.  Then the other naval routines would need to be tweaked to accommodate the rewritten submarine code.

An awful lot of work for practically no game benefit.  It wouldn't even add any additional flavour.  There are far more practicable changes to the submarine routines that would merit far more serious consideration.

In an abstraction which is more than 5 years old, no dev is going to spend even 5 seconds looking at things which hardly ever occurred in the war and even then produced no benefit to the overall war effort.

Alfred

Clear Enough [&o]

[Jorge_Stanbury]

submarine bombardment was mainly a morale boost; submarine crew is bored and depressed after many weeks of fruitless search; then skipper orders to bombard some small atoll to give the crew something to feel proud about before coming home

[guctony]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

submarine bombardment was mainly a morale boost; submarine crew is bored and depressed after many weeks of fruitless search; then skipper orders to bombard some small atoll to give the crew something to feel proud about before coming home

Yeah I think I need that same kind of treatment

[pontiouspilot]

The movie "1941" probably accurately reflects the effect of a sub bombardment!!

[barkman44]

I beg to difer,late in the war u.s.subs started carrying less torpedoes and filled the space with shells.
This was due to the effectiveness of the subs.They had sunk most of the large merchantmen and
the Japanese were relying more on small wooden ships of around 500 tons and less.
Sort of overkill to use an expensive torpedo on such small targets.

[pontiouspilot]

Bark....yes but what you speak of is not "bombardment" merely a different form of sub op. I take question to relate to actual "bombardment" as defined in the game.

[AW1Steve]

The Japanese bombarded both Washington and California , as well as Midway. The USN had 3 "Sub cruisers" (Nautilus , Narwhale and Argonaut) that had 2 six inch guns. Two of those boats did significant damage on the Makin Is raid. If this could be done , it would be both believable and useful. Imagine 20+ USN boats in December 1941 , having useless torpedoes , forming a bombardment raid! [:D]

[Panther Bait]

I think part of the limitation of submarine bombardments would be the low profile of the typical submarine. The highest point of a sub is much, much lower than the spotting/observer platforms of cruisers and battleships, so the range at which accurate bombardment could be achieved would be pretty short. Not to mention the difficulty of locating the targets in the first place.

One possible difference might be the float-plane equipped subs of the IJN I suppose.

[Chickenboy]

One of the American submarines (USS Barb) landed a saboteur team on mainland Japan, which then blew up a railroad, complete with train. They then shelled some of the shore installations. They put the raid on their battle flag for additional flavor.

Agree, minor issue IRL, but interesting exploit for some morale / bragging rights gain IRL. [8D]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

One of the American submarines (USS Barb) landed a saboteur team on mainland Japan, which then blew up a railroad, complete with train. They then shelled some of the shore installations. They put the raid on their battle flag for additional flavor.

Agree, minor issue IRL, but interesting exploit for some morale / bragging rights gain IRL. [8D]

And they performed the 1st rocket attack. [X(]

[pontiouspilot]

IJN bombarded Vancouver Island and she spent 21 days in dry-dock.

[guctony]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

The Japanese bombarded both Washington and California , as well as Midway. The USN had 3 "Sub cruisers" (Nautilus , Narwhale and Argonaut) that had 2 six inch guns. Two of those boats did significant damage on the Makin Is raid. If this could be done , it would be both believable and useful. Imagine 20+ USN boats in December 1941 , having useless torpedoes , forming a bombardment raid! [:D]

Well that was my dream On IJN side...

[wdolson]

There were a number of things that happened in the real war that make for interesting stories, but they contributed very little materially to the war effort. The IJN's sub bombardment of the US mainland did have an morale impact in the US, but did essentially no damage. The Japanese balloon bombs started a few small fires and killed a few people in one incident, but they were an abject failure in having any impact on the war. The Doolittle Raid and the raid in the Philippines that happened just before the Doolittle Raid did a lot to improve American morale and the former did send the Japanese high command into a bit of a panic, but other than scoring one hit on a CVL conversion in the yards and a few other minor hits, it had virtually no impact on the war.

Adding any of these capabilities would be chrome in the game, but they would require a lot of code to achieve them, so they aren't there.

Subs can and do use their deck guns attacking ships on the surface in game. This is something that was done many times to measurable effect, so the trouble to code it in was done. On the scale of the game, bombardment of any smaller surface ship isn't going to have much effect and submarines with more primitive gun control, lower decks, and fewer guns than a surface ship would be less effective than a similarly sized surface ship. It just isn't worth the effort.

Bill

[crsutton]

I think I would be pretty happy if my Allied subs just performed their historical mission a bit better.

[BattleMoose]

The Doolittle Raid and the raid in the Philippines that happened just before the Doolittle Raid did a lot to improve American morale and the former did send the Japanese high command into a bit of a panic, but other than scoring one hit on a CVL conversion in the yards and a few other minor hits, it had virtually no impact on the war.

Bill

I remember learning (from somewhere?!) that the shock of the Doolittle Raid caused the Japanese to decide to expand their defensive perimeter. Leading to Battle of Coral Sea and subsequently Midway. But Coral Sea occurred very soon after the Doolittle Raid?

[wdolson]

After launching the Doolittle raid the Enterprise and Hornet were sent south to link up with the Lexington and Yorktown, but when it became apparent they would be too late they were sent home instead.

I believe the plans for Midway were well underway before the Doolittle raid, but there was a lot of resistance to the idea. The raid may have helped Yamamoto's argument.

Bill

[spence]

Japanese information indicates that Herring was sunk on 1 June 1944, two kilometers south of Point Tagan on Matsuwa Island in the Kuriles. The report states that two merchant ships, Hiburi Maru and Iwaki Maru, were sunk by American torpedoes while at anchor at Matsuwa. In a counterattack, a shore battery scored two direct hits on the conning tower, and "bubbles covered an area about 5 meters wide, and heavy oil covered an area of approximately 15 miles." The position of this attack was around 150 miles from the position where Herring met Barb: the attack occurred on the day after the Barb picked up her prisoner. Barb and Herring were the only U.S. submarines in the area at the time and Barb did not make the attack on the anchored ships referred to above. As a result of the attacks reported by Barb and by the Japanese, Herring has been credited with four ships and 13,202 tons sunk for her last patrol.

There were some risks associated with using a submarine for bombardment. USS Herring was lost with all hands.