How to respond to sonobouys?

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76mm
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How to respond to sonobouys?

Post by 76mm »

I've been playing this game quite a bit, but don't know anything about naval tactics or technology, so am struggling a bit.

For instance, in a recent game of the Duelists, I had two Sov submarines sunk while creeping along at max depth (500 and 700 meters!) at 5 knots. Despite their depth and slow speed, it seems both were picked up by sonobouys and killed by [not sure what].

What's the best tactic for responding to sonobouys? Go above the layer? Just run as fast as possible? Stop for some period?
Michal Pielaszkiewicz
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RE: How to respond to sonobouys?

Post by Michal Pielaszkiewicz »

Hi,

Well I'm not expert and still newbie.
What I found out is that laying within thermocline works for me or steaming silent just under the layer.
I generally respect any ASW assets with helos.

M

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renders
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RE: How to respond to sonobouys?

Post by renders »

suggest you looking in the manual, there's an interesting section about, and the mega-faq MEGA FAQ - Submarine Ops
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76mm
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RE: How to respond to sonobouys?

Post by 76mm »

ORIGINAL: renders
suggest you looking in the manual, there's an interesting section about, and the mega-faq MEGA FAQ - Submarine Ops

There is nothing in the mega-faq or (as far as I can tell) the manual about sonobouys...
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Feltan
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RE: How to respond to sonobouys?

Post by Feltan »

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I've been playing this game quite a bit, but don't know anything about naval tactics or technology, so am struggling a bit.

For instance, in a recent game of the Duelists, I had two Sov submarines sunk while creeping along at max depth (500 and 700 meters!) at 5 knots. Despite their depth and slow speed, it seems both were picked up by sonobouys and killed by [not sure what].

What's the best tactic for responding to sonobouys? Go above the layer? Just run as fast as possible? Stop for some period?

What to do?

If the enemy is dropping sonobouys it implies that they are exercising air superiority in the AO, and that is the first place to challenge them. The datalink only runs from the sonobuoy to the a/c that dropped it -- shoot it down and the sensor is ineffective.

Go low and slow. Passive sensors can't hear you if you're not making noise and have the thermal between your sub and the sensor.

Order your sub to go around them. Active sensors will ping you if you're too close, and you can't hide well.

I think (?) the detection range in game is like 5 nm; however, you have to be much closer for an auto detection. So..... shoot down the a/c dropping them, and navigate away from them.

Regards,
Feltan
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RE: How to respond to sonobouys?

Post by CV32 »

You can also apparently defeat an active sonobuoy by sitting directly beneath it, but that feat might take a rather talented and gutsy crew to achieve, and I am guessing it is not reflected in the game? (maybe it is)
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RE: How to respond to sonobouys?

Post by scottb613 »

Hi Folks,

Also - keep in mind - in real life you may not even know you've wandered into a passive sonobuoys range - your very first indication may be "Con/Sonar TORPEDO IN THE WATER - bearing xxx"...

Regards,
Scott
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RE: How to respond to sonobouys?

Post by 76mm »

Thanks for the tips. I had actually never considered shooting down the helos from my sub, I haven't yet figured out how those Sov SAMs work from subs...

The go-low, go-slow tactic didn't work for me--IIRC, the sonobouys that found my subs were at a depth of 3000 meters (?!) (although I could be mistaken). Are they usually deployed that deep, or just below the layer? when I encounter sonobouys, any sense in going over the layer?

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RE: How to respond to sonobouys?

Post by StellarRat »

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RE: How to respond to sonobouys?

Post by StellarRat »

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Thanks for the tips. I had actually never considered shooting down the helos from my sub, I haven't yet figured out how those Sov SAMs work from subs...

The go-low, go-slow tactic didn't work for me--IIRC, the sonobouys that found my subs were at a depth of 3000 meters (?!) (although I could be mistaken). Are they usually deployed that deep, or just below the layer? when I encounter sonobouys, any sense in going over the layer?

3000m...hmmm...usually it's some above and below. You sure it wasn't SOSUS?
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RE: How to respond to sonobouys?

Post by 76mm »

ORIGINAL: StellarRat
3000m...hmmm...usually it's some above and below. You sure it wasn't SOSUS?

Um, what's a SOSUS? The interface called it a sonobouy, if that means anything...
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RE: How to respond to sonobouys?

Post by StellarRat »

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: StellarRat
3000m...hmmm...usually it's some above and below. You sure it wasn't SOSUS?

Um, what's a SOSUS? The interface called it a sonobouy, if that means anything...
It's an array of microphones on the seabed that the US uses for early warning about subs leaving Russia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOSUS
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RE: How to respond to sonobouys?

Post by Luidzi »

The best friend of a submarine is an air-superority fighter flying overhead, shooting down all those pesky MPA's and helicopters. Of course, if you are near Kola peninsula with solo submarine, air cover is pretty much wishful thinking.

Soviet submarines usually have MANPADS in their towers, but in my opinion their purpose is to give you something to do until you die. They can't be launched submerged, you have to get above the water and someone must open the hatch and try to shoot that thing. Unless you are close to the surface you can't deploy it fast enough. Also, their kinematic parameters are very bad. Both SA-N-8 and SA-N-10 are rear-aspect weapons, which means they can't be used against an airplane on the attack run and have only few nm range and ceiling.
German Navy is developing an IDAS missile, basically a modified IRIS-T with extended range, fibre-optic guidance, capable of submerged launch and quad-packed in one torpedo tube. For obvious reasons it is currently not in the database.

Some ideas (I didn't test them, only what I can think of right now):
You have no way of detecting a sonobuoy pattern unless the opponent drops active buoy close enough, and even then you don't know if it's above or below layer. Trying to hide in the layer may be most effective.
You can get into periscope depth, try to find that plane (with ESM or some better quality periscope if the sub has it), mark its course on the map, guess the position of sonobuoy pattern it just laid and evade it. With direction-only ESM equipment this may be in reality more difficult than here on the paper.
Or you may simply try to carefully creep through it. Real sonobuoy detection ranges against slow-moving subs are very low and unless you pass really close to a passive sonobuoy you may go through the pattern undetected. You can also try to wait out active sonobuoys, they have only limited battery life. Passive-only buoys can last for hours, though.
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RE: How to respond to sonobouys?

Post by DeltaIV »

I had a long post going on, but since i'm drunk, i deleted it.

How can sub (SS) detect the passive SB? It's just small piece of alloys floating around.
If the SB is active - all the SS knows that it was pinged from certain direction.

I might be wrong, but how the **** SS detects that there's SB nearby ?

Thanks for explanation,
Tom
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RE: How to respond to sonobouys?

Post by 76mm »

ORIGINAL: DeltaIV
I might be wrong, but how the **** SS detects that there's SB nearby ?

Good question, although I'm hardly the one to answer. I read on the interweb that sometimes subs can hear the helos dropping the sonobouys, but that's all I've got. I also don't remember if the sonobouys that got me were active or passive, but if it helps it was in the Duelist scenario.

For the SOSUS, presumably they are fixed points--wouldn't the Sovs have figured out where they are and marked them on the map?
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RE: How to respond to sonobouys?

Post by StellarRat »

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL:For the SOSUS, presumably they are fixed points--wouldn't the Sovs have figured out where they are and marked them on the map?


Sure, but the problem is SOSUS is hundreds of miles long. It's a true barrier of microphones. You can't go around it unless you're willing to divert by thousands of miles.
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RE: How to respond to sonobouys?

Post by DeltaIV »

Technically, SOSUS equals to a big array of passive hydrophones whose output is evaluated at some central place. I guess that they will be more hi-fi compared to disposable passive SBs.

If the sub somehow magically knew that there are passive SBs or even dipping sonar deployed in passive mode, what could they do ? They can either switch to silent running and perhaps get to the other side of thermal layer (deep) or get out of the sensor range (if they have bearing to the enemy sensor). I guess that the general solution is to be deep (avoiding dipping sonar) and creeping.

Remember that modern ASW MPAs (Orion, Bear) can cover rather big area with grid of various SBs in several minutes and just roam around picking up the SB readings via the datalinks. If the SBs are active, they will find the sub sooner or later. From what i've saw in Dangerous Waters a nd also in some literature, it's not very hard to find submarines if you have rough location and few ASW patrol aircrafts available. Not even talking about ASW vessels.

If the sub is SSBN, intelligence usually wants to keep it's area of operations secret. If it's SSN/SSGN, they usually roam around full CVBG -- where their acoustic signature isn't that significant and they're also more easily defended by other vessels.
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RE: How to respond to sonobouys?

Post by jarraya »

I ran a few tests with a US SSN and a few Chinese choppers in the editor. Passive sonobouys only. Once detected even faintly, I was able to use the chopper to pinpoint the sub well enough for a torpedo launch every time, no matter what I did with the sub on speed and depth.
Interestingly though, the passive sonob only detected my sub when it was about 1/2 was or closer into the range circle of the sonob.
On one occasion I was able to sail right under a passive sonob with my sub at periscope depth without being detected but then I was picked up as I sailed away.
One thing to consider when you are playing against the AI on ASW patrol. If they get a fix with a sonobouy the chopper immediately gets overhead and uses the dipping sonar, at which point you are better off going to flank and hoping for the best....
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RE: How to respond to sonobouys?

Post by ChezDaJez »

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: DeltaIV
I might be wrong, but how the **** SS detects that there's SB nearby ?

Good question, although I'm hardly the one to answer. I read on the interweb that sometimes subs can hear the helos dropping the sonobouys, but that's all I've got. I also don't remember if the sonobouys that got me were active or passive, but if it helps it was in the Duelist scenario.

For the SOSUS, presumably they are fixed points--wouldn't the Sovs have figured out where they are and marked them on the map?

I am a retired antisubmarine warfare electronics operator with 26 years experience and nearly 9000 hours in P-3 Orions. A good many of those hours were spent hunting and tracking Soviet submarines during the cold war so I know a thing or two about sonobuoys.

A sub can detect a passive sonobuoy by going to periscope depth and raising a radio antenna. Detection of radio frequencies associated with sonobuoys is an indication that they are looking for you and are working an area of probability in which you are contained.

Passive sonobuoys are depth and life selectable and can be set down to 1000' deep and a few hours operating time. The best evasion against a passive sonobuoy is to be on the opposite side of the layer as the hydrophone and to minimize your noise levels as best you can. That means going dead slow in most cases and shutting down unnecessary equipment. Diesel submarines are virtually undetectable by passive sonobuoys when operating in battery mode but nuclear submarines are more detectable due to the need to operate reactor associated equipment.

And hiding underneath an active hydrophone can be done but you have to get underneath it first. That means driving your sub through the detection zone and receiving a weapon for your efforts.

SOSUS is an underwater passive sonar system with fixed underwater arrays. These arrays are laid out in such a manner as to cover choke points such as the Iceland-Faroes gap and major ocean transit lanes. They are capable of detecting cold war era submarines over 100s of miles and occasionally 1000s of miles. It used to be nearly impossible for nuclear submarines to avoid detection by these areas. Once detected, SOSUS can generate an area of probability that will contain the submarine. These AOPs can be reasonably small when multiple arrays are in contact or fairly large and ambiguous when only one array is in contact. As a submariner, you will never know whether you have been detected or not. Rest assured however that if you have been detected, ASW forces are being routes to your location. The Soviets did have good knowledge of the capability and locations of SOSUS arrays thanks to people like John Walker. The best way to deal with SOSUS is to take out their processing stations and even then there is no guarantee that the data isn't being datalinked elsewhere.

Chez
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RE: How to respond to sonobouys?

Post by Gandalf »

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez
I am a retired antisubmarine warfare electronics operator with 26 years experience and nearly 9000 hours in P-3 Orions. A good many of those hours were spent hunting and tracking Soviet submarines during the cold war so I know a thing or two about sonobuoys.

A sub can detect a passive sonobuoy by going to periscope depth and raising a radio antenna. Detection of radio frequencies associated with sonobuoys is an indication that they are looking for you and are working an area of probability in which you are contained.

Passive sonobuoys are depth and life selectable and can be set down to 1000' deep and a few hours operating time. The best evasion against a passive sonobuoy is to be on the opposite side of the layer as the hydrophone and to minimize your noise levels as best you can. That means going dead slow in most cases and shutting down unnecessary equipment. Diesel submarines are virtually undetectable by passive sonobuoys when operating in battery mode but nuclear submarines are more detectable due to the need to operate reactor associated equipment.

And hiding underneath an active hydrophone can be done but you have to get underneath it first. That means driving your sub through the detection zone and receiving a weapon for your efforts.

SOSUS is an underwater passive sonar system with fixed underwater arrays. These arrays are laid out in such a manner as to cover choke points such as the Iceland-Faroes gap and major ocean transit lanes. They are capable of detecting cold war era submarines over 100s of miles and occasionally 1000s of miles. It used to be nearly impossible for nuclear submarines to avoid detection by these areas. Once detected, SOSUS can generate an area of probability that will contain the submarine. These AOPs can be reasonably small when multiple arrays are in contact or fairly large and ambiguous when only one array is in contact. As a submariner, you will never know whether you have been detected or not. Rest assured however that if you have been detected, ASW forces are being routes to your location. The Soviets did have good knowledge of the capability and locations of SOSUS arrays thanks to people like John Walker. The best way to deal with SOSUS is to take out their processing stations and even then there is no guarantee that the data isn't being datalinked elsewhere.

Chez

Excellent informative post! Thank You for sharing. [:)]
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