My Axis first turn basics

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Ketza
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RE: My Axis first turn basics

Post by Ketza »

I usually go ahead and overrun Vilnius without bombing the Airfield first. For some reason this hex is bad for bombing with raids of 80+ Ju-88s only killing 30 or so planes.

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Ketza
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RE: My Axis first turn basics

Post by Ketza »

Here is the end of the 18ths run. Not bad. Now most of the divisions should rout to the immediate east and to the north. Some divisions may even rout to the south where they will wind up in the usual center pocket.

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Ketza
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RE: My Axis first turn basics

Post by Ketza »

86 planes killed after 4 attacks not bad. In the end I look to bag between 3000 - 3400 on average by the end of the turn.

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Ketza
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RE: My Axis first turn basics

Post by Ketza »

Attacking South to north filling up the rout points. You can see where they go usually they are highlighted in red.

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Ketza
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RE: My Axis first turn basics

Post by Ketza »

121st division had its work cut out. Now that the divisions are routed and the fort is gone I stop attacking. I leave hexes with HQs and security regiments for last. I don't want the rout points filling up with garbage units. 121st started with 70 morale. 74 is a nice bump and it may go up more with the last attack on the at unit with the HQ.

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Ketza
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RE: My Axis first turn basics

Post by Ketza »

Initial attacks along AGN. 7 routed divisions and one sec regiment are in rout points in future pockets. Not too bad. The units to the south should be circled as well.

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Ketza
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RE: My Axis first turn basics

Post by Ketza »

That's all for now. If anyone sees anything that's flat out a bad move please let me know. One never stops learning.
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morvael
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RE: My Axis first turn basics

Post by morvael »

Remember that only 16-50% of fuel is dropped successfully when the target unit is not in the same hex as (or next to) an airbase unit. Since you don't want to move airbases at the start of turn (because that reduces aircraft availability), it's better to move Panzer Corps HQs next to an airbase, and only then refuel it. That way you will get much more fuel dumps in the HQ for the next turn (at a price of a few MP).

I also try to remind that better than average leaders are crucial to get higher CV in combat as well as more MP per turn - and these things matter most in this game. Attaching SUs is good, but I would first spend APs to reduce corps HQs overload (very bad effect on leader rolls), and to change worst leaders (once again, the first level matters most - corps leaders). Both things might be a bit cheaper in 1.08, so it will be an even better thing to do. SUs can wait a turn or two. For sure they must be used to the max, when attacking strongly defended locations (Leningrad, Sevastopol).

Anyway, a very good idea for a thread (and execution). You made me realize that towns are the rout target locations. Please expand this with a tutorial on how to do a proper opening in the south :)
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821Bobo
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RE: My Axis first turn basics

Post by 821Bobo »

For the fuel drop you can use army airbases.
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smokindave34
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RE: My Axis first turn basics

Post by smokindave34 »

I prioritize my AP's early on to replace axis leaders (and make sure all my corps HQ are under command limits as Moravel has said). The Germans have a LOT of excellent leaders sitting on the sidelines early in the war and you can use them to help squeeze a few more MP's and CV out of your units. Even some of the panzer corps leaders are poor (one of the 3rd panzer group HQ in particular) and getting the best leaders in the panzer corps HQ is crucial in my opinion.

Ketza - thanks for the post. Always great to see how others handle turn 1!
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Commanderski
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RE: My Axis first turn basics

Post by Commanderski »

Some very good hints and tips. Thank you very much!

You don't bomb the airfields at the start of Turn 1?
swkuh
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RE: My Axis first turn basics

Post by swkuh »

Well done, thanks... routing points, nice tip.
BJP III
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RE: My Axis first turn basics

Post by BJP III »

I thought I was the only one who had figured out how to use motorized divisions to convert bad rout locations and herd routers into pockets ;) I also like to convert the corridor from Vilnius to Minsk and the additional Eastern corridor that runs North to Daugapilus ASAP as well. These help shape the AGN and Bialystock pockets and make it almost impossible for them to be broken, while maximizing the POWs.

Another tip for LVII PzK -- two of the divisions start with low morale (80 I think). Try to find them easy combats to get the morale over 85 -- they gain morale super-fast, so it usually only takes 2-3 wins each.

One thing I struggle with is the rail line in AGN. I do not try to take Riga on T1, because I find that the attack fails too often for comfort, and if it fails, the whole situation in AGN turns into a clusterf***. Accordingly, maximizing the units in the AGN pocket requires that they not be routed off the rail line. This, in turn, slows the rail conversion, because even when the units are destroyed on T2, the FBD unit pays a big penalty for moving into Soviet hexes. And getting the rail line across the Dvina ASAP is critical to getting to L-grad before its defenses are really strong.

Note: rather than attack Riga directly, I instead convert the line Liepaja-Tukums-Jelgava-Jekabpils/Plavinas to form the pocket to the South.

@Commanderski -- it seems to work better to hold off on bombing AFs until they are about to be overrun. Instead, crank up CAP for GS (and I set Bomber GS to 0 during the AGN and AGC offensive), and allow your fighters to shred the Soviet GS. This renders the Soviet fighters much less effective, which increases AF bombing later on and reducing bomber losses.
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Ketza
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RE: My Axis first turn basics

Post by Ketza »

Very nice replies thank you.

A couple of questions

1)So if you move the army base AF to the target hex of the HQ you can then fly in fuel normally and not get the fuel reduction?

2)On turn one I choose to reorganize some divisions as opposed to move some commanders around and hopefully save a little fuel. AP usage seems to be more economical this way. The out of HQ penalty is -20% vrs having a different commander having a better leader rating. Turn one the Soviets have combat disadvantages and will never be weaker so my thought was get some organizing out of the way first worry then worry about command.

Is the difference between a -20% and command rating change a wash? This is one area I would like to explore more as I see a lot of AARS where the "colors" are all jumbled up.

3) SUs and fuel consumption - is it a good idea to attach Panzer and Motorized divisions to HQs with very few SUS attached to streamline fuel distribution? You may take a hit on combat power but during turns 3-5 your usually not doing as much fighting as you are just flipping hexes and advancing against poor Soviet units.

Thanks for all the feedback,

Will

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morvael
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RE: My Axis first turn basics

Post by morvael »

1) Same hex or next one in proper airbase terrain. If in the same hex remember to use manual drop and select HQ as target.
2) Impact of high leader skills is much higher than 20%. It's in terms of orders of magnitude :) Of course mixing units from different HQs in one battle costs you some CV, and should be avoided where it matters, but it's not as big as leaders.
3) HQs with higher need will proportionally ask for and get more. I think it's not that important when there is no global resource shortage. Usually at some point only vehicles (trucks) are limited, and at this point attaching non-motorized SUs to motorized combat units is not a good idea (though nowhere near to what disaster it was before being patched).
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Ketza
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RE: My Axis first turn basics

Post by Ketza »

Very good information ty sir. I will have to rethink my turn one use of APs.
BJP III
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RE: My Axis first turn basics

Post by BJP III »

ORIGINAL: morvael

1) Same hex or next one in proper airbase terrain. If in the same hex remember to use manual drop and select HQ as target.
2) Impact of high leader skills is much higher than 20%. It's in terms of orders of magnitude :) Of course mixing units from different HQs in one battle costs you some CV, and should be avoided where it matters, but it's not as big as leaders.
3) HQs with higher need will proportionally ask for and get more. I think it's not that important when there is no global resource shortage. Usually at some point only vehicles (trucks) are limited, and at this point attaching non-motorized SUs to motorized combat units is not a good idea (though nowhere near to what disaster it was before being patched).

On #1, it seems to me that it works better to drop fuel on specific units rather than on HQs. In particular, MOT divisions benefit a lot more from fuel drops than do Panzers, because they use a lot less fuel (in gallon/ton terms). Also, if a HQ has too much fuel at the end of a turn, don't they send it back?

On #2, I have never been clear on how HQs work in a mobile situation. AIUI, once an HQ moves, it can no longer allocate support units. Is that correct? But a corps HQ cannot allocate SUs to a combat more than 5 hexes away (which seems to be pretty much all of my Panzer/MOT attacks, at least early in the game), so SUs are kinda moot. Now, should you move the HQ to be within 5 hexes of a combat to add the leadership benefit (or prevent a penalty) or does moving it negate the added benefit?

On #3, relating to the point about MOT units, if you attach AFV SUs to a MOT division, it will use a lot more fuel, correct? I did not think, though, that the number of SUs in the HQ has any effect on the MPs that the attached divisions will have. I thought that was a function of (a) the distance of the HQ to the supply head, (b) the unit's distance to its HQ, (c) leadership ratings, and (d) die rolls. Is that right?
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morvael
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RE: My Axis first turn basics

Post by morvael »

#1: that is true, as tanks have higher fuel use than motorized rifle squads. However the number of motorized divisions is limited, so I think the Axis player has to think about refueling all of his fast units. At the end of turn nothing is sent back, but extra may be sent during next logistics phase. I don't remember the details about HQs sending back dumps (perhaps some are sent back in case of vehicle shortages, I'm not sure), but for sure combat units send extras over 200% need. It's rare to have units at over 200% need after a turn of movement, so that shouldn't be a problem. I think in some specific cases it might be better to refuel single motorized unit, but generally sending to HQ is not that bad choice.

#2: HQs still allocate SUs to combat after movement, but this is supposed to happen with lower chance for success. They have to be in range though. Unless divisions of the corps are operating far away from each other, you can follow the units with HQs before doing attacks, and you will get SUs in combat. Distance to first HQ doesn't count when attached to corps, so leaders work in any case (but moving closer armies and army groups theoretically increases chances for successfull roll).

#3: SUs will suck fuel from parent unit (so both units have similar fuel levels), thus can lower parent unit MP. Otherwise they do not affect it.

It seems that if you depend on fuel drops then it's better without SUs. If you depend on supply chain and HQBU it does not matter. Leaders are important in either case.
charlie0311
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RE: My Axis first turn basics

Post by charlie0311 »

if the hq move then no su for deliberate attack, haste ok. ?? Is this true?
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Peltonx
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RE: My Axis first turn basics

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: BJP III

ORIGINAL: morvael

1) Same hex or next one in proper airbase terrain. If in the same hex remember to use manual drop and select HQ as target.
2) Impact of high leader skills is much higher than 20%. It's in terms of orders of magnitude :) Of course mixing units from different HQs in one battle costs you some CV, and should be avoided where it matters, but it's not as big as leaders.
3) HQs with higher need will proportionally ask for and get more. I think it's not that important when there is no global resource shortage. Usually at some point only vehicles (trucks) are limited, and at this point attaching non-motorized SUs to motorized combat units is not a good idea (though nowhere near to what disaster it was before being patched).

On #1, it seems to me that it works better to drop fuel on specific units rather than on HQs.
In particular, MOT divisions benefit a lot more from fuel drops than do Panzers,
because they use a lot less fuel (in gallon/ton terms).
Also, if a HQ has too much fuel at the end of a turn, don't they send it back?

On #2, I have never been clear on how HQs work in a mobile situation.
AIUI, once an HQ moves, it can no longer allocate support units. Is that correct?
But a corps HQ cannot allocate SUs to a combat more than 5 hexes away (which seems to be pretty much all of my Panzer/MOT attacks,
at least early in the game), so SUs are kinda moot.
Now, should you move the HQ to be within 5 hexes of a combat to add the leadership benefit (or prevent a penalty)
or does moving it negate the added benefit?

On #3, relating to the point about MOT units,
if you attach AFV SUs to a MOT division, it will use a lot more fuel, correct?
I did not think, though, that the number of SUs in the HQ has any effect on the MPs that the attached divisions will have.
I thought that was a function of (a) the distance of the HQ to the supply head, (b) the unit's distance to its HQ,
(c) leadership ratings, and (d) die rolls. Is that right?

#1 I would not be so sure about #1 in the "future" morvael, I have run tests.
I do air drops at the end of a turn to Corp HQ's

You can test not hard.See what your MP's and fuel level are the next turn.

#2 You assign the SU's to divisions as Katze is doing at the start of turn 1 before moving- Stugs, Flamm PZs and pioneers.
Like Riga assault which works 100% of the time. Assign pioneers move divisions next to Riga then move HQ withen supply range. I always keep HQ's withen 5 hexs.
Do all ground attacks then do fuel drops to HQ's - AGS I set-up one Corp with all MoT Divisions.

#3 Keep HQ's withen 5 hexes of any attack.

Leaders are important, but I only make 1 change per turn starting turn 2 until around turn 7.

AP's are needed for HQBU's, moving arty's into 16t Army and attaching SU's to divisions.
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
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