Why are we stil waiting for a Squad Leader PC conversion?

[bairdlander2]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

ORIGINAL: parusski

ORIGINAL: wodin

Ask Paradox..they bought the digital rights a fair few years ago and did nothing.

Yeah, and that breaks my heart.

Cmon, did you really want "PARADOX" to do the true to life squad leader game? [:'(]

[fran52]

For those interested to a ASL mod based on HoS,I have written a thread under Mods and Scenario in the Lock & Load forum.At the moment the mod is in advanced state,that means all the counters are done with csv file and also many maps.

[gradenko2k]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
Cmon, did you really want "PARADOX" to do the true to life squad leader game? [:'(]

Paradox has very transparent and user-friendly interfaces, so sure, it'd be nice to mouse-over a particular move and get a precise breakdown of every factor that goes into it. Paradox would also make the game very moddable, and they have the resources and experience to make it in full 3D.

[aaatoysandmore]

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
Cmon, did you really want "PARADOX" to do the true to life squad leader game? [:'(]

Paradox has very transparent and user-friendly interfaces, so sure, it'd be nice to mouse-over a particular move and get a precise breakdown of every factor that goes into it. Paradox would also make the game very moddable, and they have the resources and experience to make it in full 3D.

It wouldn't be Squad Leader as we know Squad Leader because Paradox makes everything (wargame) in 'real time'.

[MrsWargamer]

Generally when you take a board game, and you make it look like anything other than a board game, all you end up with really is a lie you get to pay for.

ASL in real time, isn't going to be ASL.

Generally speaking, I think if a person wants to think that they are playing ASL, their only real choices are Steel Panthers (as long as it is human vs human), Close Combat (as long as it is human vs human) or Combat Mission (as long as it is human vs human), or Battle Academy (as long as it is human vs human).

I mention the human opponent, because these games are known to their fans to have AI opponents that don't deserve the word opponent for the most part.

I wouldn't play ASL in real time at gun point.

[gradenko2k]

Well yes obviously if we don't accept that the developer will leave the game mechanics as-is then that's a problem. I would say Firaxis or Shenandoah studios are other developers that might make a good effort of adapting Squad Leader.

As an aside Close Combat actually was supposed to be a Squad Leader analogue, but then they turned it real time because if I recall correctly it was easier to implement the rules, especially for morale.

[Mundy]

I don't know...
 
I think a computer version of Squad Leader would be just that -- a simulation of Squad Leader, as opposed to anything simulating World War II.  I truly loved (A)SL back in the day, but it needs to stay where it belongs.  On a board.  Seeing the extreme complexity of getting WiF into computer form, some face to face board games are simply difficult to convert into computer form.  Made even worse when it involves lots of back and forth interaction amongst the players.
 
For myself, Steel Panthers was close enough to the SL goal.
 
Computers these days can find better ways to simulate historical events, complete with Fog of War, tailored in a better way to that medium.
 
My $0.02.
 
Ed-
 
 

[geozero]

Steel Panthers was the defacto ASL game. It has long vanished. A fantastic game, with map and scenario editors, auto battle creations. So much more.

[aaatoysandmore]

ORIGINAL: Mundy

I don't know...

I think a computer version of Squad Leader would be just that -- a simulation of Squad Leader, as opposed to anything simulating World War II.  I truly loved (A)SL back in the day, but it needs to stay where it belongs.  On a board.  Seeing the extreme complexity of getting WiF into computer form, some face to face board games are simply difficult to convert into computer form.  Made even worse when it involves lots of back and forth interaction amongst the players.

For myself, Steel Panthers was close enough to the SL goal.

Computers these days can find better ways to simulate historical events, complete with Fog of War, tailored in a better way to that medium.

My $0.02.

Ed-

While I agree with you to a point, I do feel if they put all that effort and money they put into the next latest greatest graphics for a game and put it into the actual game and AI itself that they or anyone with programming knowledge could do it. Dave Landrey of SSI fame made some great games with simple graphics back in the 80's so I know it can be done. It's just that money seems to be in graphics graphics graphics. I'm bored of all the graphics changes. I'm perfectly happy with nato counters if there is a game behind it that works out of the box and is challenging.

[geozero]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

ORIGINAL: Mundy

I don't know...

I think a computer version of Squad Leader would be just that -- a simulation of Squad Leader, as opposed to anything simulating World War II.  I truly loved (A)SL back in the day, but it needs to stay where it belongs.  On a board.  Seeing the extreme complexity of getting WiF into computer form, some face to face board games are simply difficult to convert into computer form.  Made even worse when it involves lots of back and forth interaction amongst the players.

For myself, Steel Panthers was close enough to the SL goal.

Computers these days can find better ways to simulate historical events, complete with Fog of War, tailored in a better way to that medium.

My $0.02.

Ed-

While I agree with you to a point, I do feel if they put all that effort and money they put into the next latest greatest graphics for a game and put it into the actual game and AI itself that they or anyone with programming knowledge could do it. Dave Landrey of SSI fame made some great games with simple graphics back in the 80's so I know it can be done. It's just that money seems to be in graphics graphics graphics. I'm bored of all the graphics changes. I'm perfectly happy with nato counters if there is a game behind it that works out of the box and is challenging.

Agreed. People (i.e. programmers) keep saying AI is impossible, yet it was done waaaay back in the day. The graphics were simple back then because of the PC limits.

Today it should be easy to get great looking graphics and BETTER AI and GUI. There is absolutely NO REASON not to, other than the game makers themselves being scared that a game with replayability will mean no other sales. Very bad marketing.

[parusski]

ORIGINAL: geozero

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

ORIGINAL: Mundy

I don't know...

I think a computer version of Squad Leader would be just that -- a simulation of Squad Leader, as opposed to anything simulating World War II.  I truly loved (A)SL back in the day, but it needs to stay where it belongs.  On a board.  Seeing the extreme complexity of getting WiF into computer form, some face to face board games are simply difficult to convert into computer form.  Made even worse when it involves lots of back and forth interaction amongst the players.

For myself, Steel Panthers was close enough to the SL goal.

Computers these days can find better ways to simulate historical events, complete with Fog of War, tailored in a better way to that medium.

My $0.02.

Ed-

While I agree with you to a point, I do feel if they put all that effort and money they put into the next latest greatest graphics for a game and put it into the actual game and AI itself that they or anyone with programming knowledge could do it. Dave Landrey of SSI fame made some great games with simple graphics back in the 80's so I know it can be done. It's just that money seems to be in graphics graphics graphics. I'm bored of all the graphics changes. I'm perfectly happy with nato counters if there is a game behind it that works out of the box and is challenging.

Agreed. People (i.e. programmers) keep saying AI is impossible, yet it was done waaaay back in the day. The graphics were simple back then because of the PC limits.

Today it should be easy to get great looking graphics and BETTER AI and GUI. There is absolutely NO REASON not to, other than the game makers themselves being scared that a game with replayability will mean no other sales. Very bad marketing.

I would pay decent money for an updated SPWAW.

[MrsWargamer]

I was back there back in the day. Nope, you are likely seeing the thing through rose coloured glasses dear.

I recall my first encounters with the Long Campaign of Steel Panthers and let me just say, it was like kicking puppies. The AI simply had no defense for a cherry picked perfect force. Arty for tenderizing, 88s on a ridge to pick off the stunned stragglers and you might need a few troops to sponge up the mess. It was never any fun playing the AI in the Long Campaign of Steel Panthers.

It wasn't a GREAT experience in the Mega Campaigns, but, you couldn't cherry pick silly formations, you were given assigned troops and if you mangled the scenario, the next scenario to follow gave you hell for it. The AI was a lot more able to beat you up, as you didn't have the chance to get away with totally no historical realism unit creations.

Between 2005 and 2010 though, it seemed the game suffered from the OS dreadfully where the mouse controls are concerned. I know nothing of coding, but, I have always wondered was it really that hard to fix an input device software problem? And now the arty screen seems fubarred. I can't imagine how that happened though.

I'd drop a 100 dollar bill on a totally and completely and entirely rebuilt Steel Panthers. No real time, no 3d, no weirdness that wasn't there before. Top down view, all the same ole experience, just new bloody code, and a proprietary ownership so it could be claimed without copy-write issues. I'm not getting any younger though. Being told he might get to it in a few years, well he's not any too young himself

[geozero]

I don't think anyone needs ASL rights if they are not recreating that. We are 25 years forward in the future. Much more can be done with game design, graphics, and GUI. You can make a squad level game that is not ASL, and is rather far superior.

Again, Steel Panthers took us down that path. Now if we could also control building sizes and levels, and other features, it would be awesome.

[aaatoysandmore]

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

I was back there back in the day. Nope, you are likely seeing the thing through rose coloured glasses dear.

I recall my first encounters with the Long Campaign of Steel Panthers and let me just say, it was like kicking puppies. The AI simply had no defense for a cherry picked perfect force. Arty for tenderizing, 88s on a ridge to pick off the stunned stragglers and you might need a few troops to sponge up the mess. It was never any fun playing the AI in the Long Campaign of Steel Panthers.

It wasn't a GREAT experience in the Mega Campaigns, but, you couldn't cherry pick silly formations, you were given assigned troops and if you mangled the scenario, the next scenario to follow gave you hell for it. The AI was a lot more able to beat you up, as you didn't have the chance to get away with totally no historical realism unit creations.

Between 2005 and 2010 though, it seemed the game suffered from the OS dreadfully where the mouse controls are concerned. I know nothing of coding, but, I have always wondered was it really that hard to fix an input device software problem? And now the arty screen seems fubarred. I can't imagine how that happened though.

I'd drop a 100 dollar bill on a totally and completely and entirely rebuilt Steel Panthers. No real time, no 3d, no weirdness that wasn't there before. Top down view, all the same ole experience, just new bloody code, and a proprietary ownership so it could be claimed without copy-write issues. I'm not getting any younger though. Being told he might get to it in a few years, well he's not any too young himself

David Landrey didn't work on Steel Panthers back then. He's famous for "Battles of Napoleon" and "War of the Lance" and some of the "Champions of Krynn DnD series. I believe he also was involved in some kind of Medieval Legends game and also No Greater Glory (civilwar game). I was a beta tester for him on many of those games and the ai's he made were suberb. I am just sad he got out of computer gaming too early in our lives.

[aaatoysandmore]

ORIGINAL: geozero

I don't think anyone needs ASL rights if they are not recreating that. We are 25 years forward in the future. Much more can be done with game design, graphics, and GUI. You can make a squad level game that is not ASL, and is rather far superior.

Again, Steel Panthers took us down that path. Now if we could also control building sizes and levels, and other features, it would be awesome.

A true turn based and hex based Combat Mission would have been really close as well. But, they went wego and you just can't keep up with all the action that way unless you want to watch replays 50 times a turn. I mean Combat Mission is ok to a point but so much is missed when you play long and large battles.

[geozero]

Ah yes, forgot about Combat Mission... great games. Their newer "game engines" are better. You can make small battles and they have ability to generate random battles (like SP did). I rather play small battles and prefer infantry than huge tank battles. The reality is that tanks were for the most part not Omni present on the battle field. Most games tend to want to do battles with dozens of tanks. That is why I am turned off by the Battle Academy games. Too much focus on tank battles and not enough on infantry. IMO.

With Combat Mission I can still play a small infantry engagement.

[MrsWargamer]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

ORIGINAL: geozero

I don't think anyone needs ASL rights if they are not recreating that. We are 25 years forward in the future. Much more can be done with game design, graphics, and GUI. You can make a squad level game that is not ASL, and is rather far superior.

Again, Steel Panthers took us down that path. Now if we could also control building sizes and levels, and other features, it would be awesome.

A true turn based and hex based Combat Mission would have been really close as well. But, they went wego and you just can't keep up with all the action that way unless you want to watch replays 50 times a turn. I mean Combat Mission is ok to a point but so much is missed when you play long and large battles.

That's kind of funny actually. If not for WEGO, I'd be inclined to say Combat Mission is about as useless as real time. The 3d is alright, once you get over the hassle of negotiating around the screen. It seems like making camera controls is as hard on developers as is AI design.

The new engine supposedly retained WEGO as a second rate option preferring to consider real time the superior choice. If they had dropped the WEGO though, their crummy eLicense wouldn't matter as I wouldn't play it for free under those conditions.

WEGO is the only real decider for me in games. Real time is a contradiction, but I won't say turn based IGOUGO isn't vulnerable to stupid gamey tactics. Kubelblitz is a term anyone that loves Steel Panthers will recognize.

Not sure why you find keeping up with the action a chore in Combat Mission though. Watching the replay once is hardly a chore. I just like that it forces the player to make realistic choices and then deal with them.

I loathe mouse clickfest games. I don't have any interest in pretending a serious game of strategy needs to be converted into an arcade game. If the gamer's attention span and need to be constantly fiddling is that intense, they should be playing shooters and MMOs.

[aaatoysandmore]

As I mentioned large maps and large unit amounts is very hard to keep up with with just one replay of the wego system. What happens on the right side of the map I can't see while viewing the left and what happens on the left side of the map I can't see while viewing the right. If I want to see what specifically happened to "each" unit then I have to watch the replay bunches of times. I don't have to do that with a turn based igougo system. I see "everything" that happens the first time everytime with each unit. I will always prefer turn based to anything realtime or wego even. About the only different type of play I can stomach is "simultaneous" turns like in the AOW series. In that game I'm not too worried about what goes on around the map as most of the time the map is centered on my pieces and units, but, in Combat Mission my units in large battles and large maps are all over the place.

[MrsWargamer]

Well not all turn based games give full disclosure about every and all responses. If the game has any form of FOG involved, you might experience opportunity fire and not be informed of who did it and from where necessarily. Steel Panthers even does this.

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

ORIGINAL: geozero

I don't think anyone needs ASL rights if they are not recreating that. We are 25 years forward in the future. Much more can be done with game design, graphics, and GUI. You can make a squad level game that is not ASL, and is rather far superior.

Again, Steel Panthers took us down that path. Now if we could also control building sizes and levels, and other features, it would be awesome.

A true turn based and hex based Combat Mission would have been really close as well. But, they went wego and you just can't keep up with all the action that way unless you want to watch replays 50 times a turn. I mean Combat Mission is ok to a point but so much is missed when you play long and large battles.

Turn based IGOUGO games and reality part paths. They have no time management. Most have to jury-rig in some sort of opportunity fire. WEGO games without the hex handicap are head and shoulders more realistic.