Scots Vote

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Aurelian
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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

After 2 Yes votes in a row, Midlothian votes strongly No

Overall its so close Yes 49 % - No 51%


I went out for a drive about 1:30am my time, listening to the BBC World Service when they announced a 55%-45% in favor of staying.
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shunwick
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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by shunwick »

The last minute No vote bribe has caused much ill feeling in England. How far away is the Independence for England Campaign?

Not joking either.

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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by Mobius »

Country ball take on the subject.
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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: wodin

Just wish they'd shut up about it now. Was already driving me nuts as everyday the news banged on and on and on about it.
warspite1

Why is the large-scale coverage a surprise? There is not much of a bigger issue than your country being broken up (or on the other side of the fence) your country taking a leap into independence for the first time in 300 years. I think the 86% turnout proved just how important the vote was, to the people of Scotland, and even without a vote, the rest of the UK too.

I think as far as the promises were made are concerned, its very simple. The 86% turnout, just as much as the 45% yes vote, will ensure that the promises are delivered on.
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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by warspite1 »

There's one of two ways this can go now, the UK parliamentary system gets serious reform, or the UK will die.

The people of Scotland have laid down the challenge - its up to ALL of us in these islands to seize the opportunity.
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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by Chickenboy »

Salmond stepping down, it seems. Not a big surprise from this casual observer...
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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by shunwick »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

There's one of two ways this can go now, the UK parliamentary system gets serious reform, or the UK will die.

The people of Scotland have laid down the challenge - its up to ALL of us in these islands to seize the opportunity.

Spot on. Anyone thinking the No vote will mean business as usual is missing the point. Whatever the Scottish result, the referendum was the harbinger of change.

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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Salmond stepping down, it seems. Not a big surprise from this casual observer...
warspite1

No, no surprise at all, when you get defeated in you own backyard (Aberdeenshire) then there really is no where else you can take the independence movement; just admit its time to hand the baton on to someone else.
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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by loki100 »

this is the face of unionism in central Glasgow tonight. George Square has been a centre of independence celebrations all week, where the biggest risk is excessive enthusiasm for 'strip the willow', tonight the No side choose to celebrate in their own way:

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People with yes badges or 'foreign' accents are getting attacked.

Yesterday when Unionist politicians were forecasting chaos at the vote, a total of six people got arrested (ok all were yes supporters) for being utter numpties.
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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by warspite1 »

I will answer the above as follows:

1. Let's be clear, as has been largely the way on this thread, the way to deal with the result, is with sensitivity to the losing side - after all we are all Scottish and/or citizens of the UK and should treat each other with respect. There is really no need for the victors to rub the defeated noses in it [:-]

2. That said, are you suggesting that if the Yes voters had won it would not have been them in Georges Square (or Independence Square as they unofficially re-named it)? Really? But the fact that Yes or No voters gather in a place does not mean there is going to be violence. Maybe there was an undesirable element (according to reports of sectarian chanting) who were there to cause trouble - which is rather more believable that just assuming that "unionists" in general are a bunch of trouble makers....

3. In the same way that I was picked up on quoting from the biased BBC and English press (and I did not argue the point as I was not there and could not confirm or deny what was reported), why are the reports of Unionist violence and attacks now so true? Why is the comment below true whereas a report from the Daily Mail is rubbish biased propaganda? Note the source:

The Guardian's Libby Brooks: Police doing a great job as Britannia-chanting crowds spill onto streets

I am not there so I do not know what is going down, but a report I have heard is that this is largely a bunch of hoodlums looking to cause trouble.

As much as I cannot stand Alex Salmond, at least he had the decency and commonsense to say that he respected the democratic process and all parties should now join together for the good of Scotland. The incidents this evening aren't great are they [&:]
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warspite1
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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by warspite1 »


.


Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by GaryChildress »

Sort of funny (in a tragic sense maybe). In all the years I've dabbled around in philosophy I haven't yet come across a solution to the problem of differing opinions. [:(]
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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by loki100 »

am I saying this is typical of those who voted No ... no of course not. But we have had months of Alistair Darling et al demanding the yes side apologise for every numpty with a keyboard and a lack of empathy ... and for one egg.

This is though, one side of the no camp and its got a lot worse as the evening has gone on.


There have, as you say, been regular groups in that area all week from the Yes side. With no violence and no trouble - well maybe with some rather enthusiastic renditions of the 'dashing white sergeant' or 'strip the willow'. The latter can be, to be fair, quite dangerous, I dislocated a shoulder one News Eve doing that.

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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by warspite1 »

Calm and respect is the order of the day, but sadly, some do not understand the meaning of those words - and the thuggish element was always bound to surface with such a close vote.

You wrote "People with yes badges or 'foreign' accents are getting attacked". I say again, why is that right when you repeat it and wrong when I said something about the intimidation stories by the Yes camp doing the rounds?

You also said "this is the face of Unionism in Central Glasgow tonight". But I have no doubt if the decision had gone the other way, we would have tweets of "the face of Nationalists in Central Glasgow tonight" Saltires flying ten to the dozen.

Scotland is no different from any other country on God's sweet earth, there are tolerant and intolerant people on all sides. You have chosen to show a picture of Union Jacks flying, riot police, smoke. Fine. There are pictures I could show but there is no way I am de-railing this thread Matrix have been so good to allow.

Peace.



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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by Dixie »

I've got mixed feelings to be honest, apart from the amusement of listening to Salmond promise stuff he couldn't deliver on I feel we are better off together. Like any political campaign there's been a lot of mud slinging and unsustainable promises made by both sides. I wonder what the reaction would've been from Mr Salmond though, if only the English were allowed to vote on something that would have massive consequences for the fate of the United Kingdom? Letting 4 million people from a population of 60 million decide things is not ideal. Greater regional control is probably the way forward, for all of the UK including England. Which would mean that unless something affects the whole of the UK (e.g. foreign policy) then only the MPs for that nation get to vote. Scottish MPs can't vote on English matters, English ones can't vote on Scottish ones (although I'm pretty sure the second one already is the case).

Despite feeling a bit ambivalent about the whole thing I will say that being British does not mean you can't also be Scottish or English or Welsh or Northern Irish. Or Cornish for that matter. We probably are better off together, but Scotland will probably be better off than us (for now at least).


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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by mind_messing »

You wrote "People with yes badges or 'foreign' accents are getting attacked". I say again, why is that right when you repeat it and wrong when I said something about the intimidation stories by the Yes camp doing the rounds?

Police Scotland dismissed fears over militant Yes campaign supporters as "being blown out of proportion" by the pro-Union press and political figures - http://www.ibtimes.com/scottish-indepen ... ay-1690491

As it turns out, the only serious post-election violence occurs in Glasgow - a major center of support for the Yes campaign -and it originates from the No campaign!

Let's see what the Daily Record said on the matter - http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scott ... up-4297486
In one incident, Union flag-waving lout Mark McGill, of Ballieston, Glasgow, is seen ripping a saltire from the hands of a young woman after she was knocked to the ground.

In other footage, a pony-tailed woman in a red fleece can be seen hurling a bottle as police, including mounted officers, corralled the Union flag mob.

In other images the yobs set a Saltire alight while others are seen making Nazi-style salutes. Fighting broke out in the square and at the entrance of Queen Street station as rail passengers and visitors to the city ran for cover.

He added: “They were throwing flares and smoke bombs over the top of police and sometimes at police. Whenever a Yes supporter got anywhere near them they just got in their face.”

I find it rather ironic that after all the fuss in the media over militancy from Yes campaigners, the only serious violence comes from core No supporters - when they'd won! Granted, they're not representative of the whole 55% of the No camp, but they are the steadfast supporters that weren't swayed by the media or promises or fears over their pensions.
ORIGINAL: warspite1

You also said "this is the face of Unionism in Central Glasgow tonight". But I have no doubt if the decision had gone the other way, we would have tweets of "the face of Nationalists in Central Glasgow tonight" Saltires flying ten to the dozen.

Something tells me that tweets of a Yes victory wouldn't have been anything resembling the events we saw a few days ago.

Hell, there's even been a spontaneous food bank in George Square set up by supporters of the Yes Campaign - hardly the behaviour that you'd expect from the militant Yes campaign, with all it's aggression towards No voters!
Scotland is no different from any other country on God's sweet earth, there are tolerant and intolerant people on all sides. You have chosen to show a picture of Union Jacks flying, riot police, smoke. Fine. There are pictures I could show but there is no way I am de-railing this thread Matrix have been so good to allow.

PM me them. I'd love to see them if they do exist. I'll even post back here to verify your claims.
ORIGINAL: Dixie

I've got mixed feelings to be honest, apart from the amusement of listening to Salmond promise stuff he couldn't deliver on I feel we are better off together. Like any political campaign there's been a lot of mud slinging and unsustainable promises made by both sides. I wonder what the reaction would've been from Mr Salmond though, if only the English were allowed to vote on something that would have massive consequences for the fate of the United Kingdom? Letting 4 million people from a population of 60 million decide things is not ideal. Greater regional control is probably the way forward, for all of the UK including England. Which would mean that unless something affects the whole of the UK (e.g. foreign policy) then only the MPs for that nation get to vote. Scottish MPs can't vote on English matters, English ones can't vote on Scottish ones (although I'm pretty sure the second one already is the case).

Despite feeling a bit ambivalent about the whole thing I will say that being British does not mean you can't also be Scottish or English or Welsh or Northern Irish. Or Cornish for that matter. We probably are better off together, but Scotland will probably be better off than us (for now at least).


If you love something set it free... [;)]

Scotland's membership in the Union is a matter for Scotland alone. It's the same for Northern Ireland and Wales as well. For the case to be any different is a very, very slippery slope.

The referendum has been positive in that devolution is now the big political issue of the day. The sad thing is that it already looks like it's getting mired down in inter-party politics as the devolution battle-ground shifts to England.
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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by EUBanana »

Shame. Scotland should've voted yes IMO.

As has been pointed out, Scottish politics is largely alien to the English nowadays (wasn't always the case). There is often deep discontent in Scotland about being governed by majority English politicians. And to be fair, when it happens in reverse, as happened recently with Labour and the so called tartan mafia, there's a lot of resentment about that in England. Scotland has to endure that basically 24/7 not just for brief periods.

You can't have a single nation without a proper demos, as examples like Austro-Hungary provide. This constant low level resentment is because of that, and goes beyond your own particular tribe not being in charge at the moment, as is often going to be the case anyway in a democracy. For the precise same reason why the UK (or England) should leave the EU, Scotland should leave the UK.

Federalism won't work, you can't have federalism when one unit of the federation represents >80% of it. Hence the attempts to Balkanise England into more manageable regions, but that won't go down well as it is deeply unpopular with the English electorate. This is also why an English parliament is always stymied, Westminster would be left as a rump because England is too big. Imagine if the English prime minister would end up different from the UK one, and suppose they did not get on (it is entirely possible they would be of opposing political parties). Something like this happened in the Soviet Union as soon as the authoritarianism binding it together was weakened. Yeltsin was the Russian leader, Gorbachev the Soviet one.

The No result could end up being akin to the Ulster Unionists being recalcitrant in the 1920s. If there was a yes, we could have a clean break and an amicable divorce, as we might have had (more or less) with Ireland if the Irish were more united against the English, paradoxically. As it is it might just rumble on building bad blood on both sides.
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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by Chickenboy »

I wouldn't be so pessimistic about a Federal approach, EUBanana. Even with the majority of UK denizens being English, a proper weighting within Parliament may yet be found.

To whit, California is about 10% of the population of the United States. It has significant presence in the House of Representatives with its 53 members. Were they to act together en masse, it would be a sizeable block to swing majority opinion. They still only have two US Senators, so sparsely populated Wyoming pulls even with them on that side of the ledger. The Executive (our President) is officially elected by the electoral college, but this is almost always synonymous with a national popular vote winner.

Perhaps the Canadian experience may be more analogous? After all, Ontario has about 40% of the Canadian population. Its 'touchy' neighbor to the East (Quebec) has had to have its feathers smoothed after several independence votes. Yet, in spite of this, they manage to get on alright. Sure, there's rampant Canadian griping about all the strings being pulled from Ontario, but you should be used to hearing the griping about Westminster from points abroad.

Point being: chin up. Devolution may not be insurmountable for your identity.

Edited for grammar.
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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by Mobius »

From a Scot over here says that the vote was skewed as many young Scots had to go to England to find work and could not vote. At the same time retired English people moved to Scotland and could vote. But her hometown of Dundee went 'Yes'.
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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by IronDuke_slith »

I suspect the question has been settled for all time now, to be honest.

The Yes economic argument was a mess (As an Economist, Salmond was particularly disingenuous to push it so hard), but whatever traction it had was based in large part on natural resources. In a generation, the end will be on the horizon for the oil and the economic argument against will be even greater.

If Parliament devolves power to the regions and Scotland (not to England as a whole, because that wouldn't solve the core issue here) then there will be even less to argue for since "Westminster" will be less of an issue and the pressure groups the nationalists attracted around the bedroom tax etc will more evenly split.

I think we'll remain a single nation (albeit governed differently in different parts) for the foreseeable future.

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