Matrix needs a Steam like portal

[aaatoysandmore]

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

Wrong. Do a Google search for "steam account locked" - you'll find plenty of cases where they've locked accounts - prohibiting their customers from playing the games they've purchased.

I was operating under the impression that she meant something on the scale of a game being pulled from everyone's accounts, not a scenario where a specific individual's account access is pulled over a legalistic issue.

I withdraw my claim.

Well, so long as you keep the serial key, it doesn't matter what happens to Matrix. If they don't like you and ban you, you can still play and re-install at your pleasure. Can you really fail to see the difference between this and some desk-jockey at Steam clicking a button and denying you access to each and every purchase you've ever made from Steam?

I thought rosseau's point was quite clear.

That's not really any different from a scenario where the publisher/developer asks Steam to not put any DRM on their game as it's released on Steam. Take a Paradox game for example - as long as I keep my downloaded copy of the game stored somewhere (which is not essentially different from having to store a Matrix installer+serial key text file), Paradox and Steam could collapse into a black hole tomorrow and I'd still be able to play Crusader Kings 2 as much as I want.

No you wouldn't because the Steam "Client" is required to "Install" Steam games. Try reformatting your harddrive and reloading all your games without the Steam "Client" and watch them NOT WORK. That is the difference between Matrixgames and Steam. Matrixgames doesn't require you to have a specific "client" for the game to work.

Edit: But, Barnum was right of course. [:'(]

[gradenko2k]

No you wouldn't because the Steam "Client" is required to "Install" Steam games. Try reformatting your harddrive and reloading all your games without the Steam "Client" and watch them NOT WORK. That is the difference between Matrixgames and Steam. Matrixgames doesn't require you to have a specific "client" for the game to work.

Yes, but you don't store the installer (because there isn't one), you just store the entire installed game. I carry my copy of Steam-bought Papers Please around in a flash drive and I don't need to have a Steam client to play it.

[aaatoysandmore]

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

No you wouldn't because the Steam "Client" is required to "Install" Steam games. Try reformatting your harddrive and reloading all your games without the Steam "Client" and watch them NOT WORK. That is the difference between Matrixgames and Steam. Matrixgames doesn't require you to have a specific "client" for the game to work.

Yes, but you don't store the installer (because there isn't one), you just store the entire installed game. I carry my copy of Steam-bought Papers Please around in a flash drive and I don't need to have a Steam client to play it.

That part is true. You did "install" it the first time through Steam. Reformat your harddrive and load it from the flashdrive without installing your steam client and tell me it works. I'm talking about a full reformat and reboot now, clearing your "register" as long as the steam client has or is still in your register then sure you can save any file on just about any media and rerun it. But, the difference here is you don't have to do that with Matrixgames games you just reformat, reboot and click on the setup.exe file. Steam requires most of their AAA title games to have the steam client installed before you can even goto the site and download those games origionally. If you don't believe me try reformatting and rebooting and then reinstalling something like Shogun II or Empire or Rome 2 from that scan disk after you reformat your harddrive.

Let's face it harddrives fail (thas why I store my games on 3 different devices) and when you have to install a new drive that is when you will find out the difference between Steam and Matrixgames. That's the big gripe about Steam mostly is that it (steam) is "required" to install the game the "first" time and every time you reformat and reinstall your games. But, I am certain without a doubt that very first time you download the game you "have" to have the steam client installed. Matrixgames has no client you have to install. Just input the cd key and you're off.[:)]

[chemkid]

.

[gradenko2k]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
That part is true. You did "install" it the first time through Steam. Reformat your harddrive and load it from the flashdrive without installing your steam client and tell me it works. I'm talking about a full reformat and reboot now, clearing your "register" as long as the steam client has or is still in your register then sure you can save any file on just about any media and rerun it. But, the difference here is you don't have to do that with Matrixgames games you just reformat, reboot and click on the setup.exe file. Steam requires most of their AAA title games to have the steam client installed before you can even goto the site and download those games origionally. If you don't believe me try reformatting and rebooting and then reinstalling something like Shogun II or Empire or Rome 2 from that scan disk after you reformat your harddrive.

Let's face it harddrives fail (thas why I store my games on 3 different devices) and when you have to install a new drive that is when you will find out the difference between Steam and Matrixgames. That's the big gripe about Steam mostly is that it (steam) is "required" to install the game the "first" time and every time you reformat and reinstall your games. But, I am certain without a doubt that very first time you download the game you "have" to have the steam client installed. Matrixgames has no client you have to install. Just input the cd key and you're off.[:)]

Why is it important that you have to explicitly install your game? Yes, if I reformat my drive on a Monday and Steam goes belly-up on a Tuesday then I won't have access to any of my games anymore, but if I reformat my drive on a Monday and Matrix goes belly-up on a Tuesday then I can't re-download a Matrix installer from a Matrix website that doesn't exist anymore, either.

"Back-up the installer!", you might say. Ok, then why can't I back-up a folder-copy of Papers Please as well? Hell, why can't I upload a folder-copy of Papers Please to Dropbox to protect myself against a hardware failure the same way you'd upload WITE's installer (and its latest patch, and its serial key on a text file) to achieve the same effect?

The only way Steam comes off as worse in this scenario is if DRM requiring that it be launched from a Steam client is activated, and whether or not it is, is completely up to the publisher/developer when they put their game up on Steam in the first place.

If Matrix opted to they could sell War in the Pacific on Steam and make it so that you can double-click the executable outside of Steam and it'd run without a hitch, and if you wanted to retain access to War in the Pacific by backing-up the entire folder to your alternate-storage of choice and it'd be free of any dangers from formatting your drive, and it'd still be faster than the current model because you wouldn't even need to input the CD-Key.

[aaatoysandmore]

True, I agree with that. But, let me ask you this. Can you install your "whole" library of games (providing you have 100's) on "one scan disk"? I can do that with Matrixgames setup.exe files.

The other principle is that one "has" to use Steam in the first place to download "exclusive" games like the Total Wars from I believe it is Empire onwards. I'm not against the idea of steam as a source of getting games online. I'm against their install through us or nobody policy on most of the games they sell. Now Matrix was able to cut a deal where they use their site and the Matrix site to download games and I don't have a problem with that a bit because it leaves me with a choice of where I want to purchase and how I want to store my games.

Let's take Gamersgate for instance they are like I wish Steam were. While "installing" their games one can goto that folder where the game downloaded to and the setup.exe file will appear (otherwise you get some kind of crypic codes show up in the file when first downloaded) but during that installation of the game I can actully see and save that setup.exe file and save it for later on to reinstall the game if Gamersgate goes belly up. Still need a cd key but that is not the kind of DRM I am talking about when it comes to steam.

Steam on the other had on a lot of the AAA titles still requires not only the steam client but also DRM. Matrixgames if they go bellyup I can reformat, reboot, blow my computer up but all I have to do is just click on one of those setup.exe files on one of my 3 storage savings devices and the game will load and play. It's more about feelings of security that I will have that game forever and ever (as long as I keep it backed up in many places) as opposed to Steam and we don't really know what they will do in a going out of business or bankruptcy event.

So, while I say Steam sucks it's not that they are an online distributer. It's the way they do their distributing and pretty much force us into their way or the highway. I like options and will always favor options. For years I bought nothing but Amazon.com used games and ebay used games. But, they are trying so hard to eliminate the ability to sell used games on Steam as well. Though they are not a monopoly they sure seem like one when you still have to use them to download and install the game you bought from say Green Man Gaming or Gamersgate or any other site and they tell you that a 3rd party "client" is required and the 3rd party is always steam.

Just as an example. SSI, Microprose and several other developer sites have come and gone over the years. I have most of their games on 5-1/4" floppies, harddrives and scan disks. So since the 80's games I bought back then I still own and have and can play. Try to find a copy and play Rails West from SSI. With the games I have on steam as long as this computer and harddrive stay active I own and can play but if something happens to this harddrive I'm sol as far as steam goes if steam goes belly up like SSI and Microprose. Now sure I can save complete installations and do it the way you are talking but that is some hellacious storage from a few mb's to millions of gigabytes.

I have every game I ever bought from 1982 onward and I have an extensive library. Of course now I'm reaching the end of the line but still I'd hate to lose a single one of them until my train stops. Then of course I don't care. [:)]

I have no doubt you that have had the easy life like Steam and the ease of which you can "get/buy" games but I don't think you all are looking at the full picture as a whole. You'll turn around one day and all your games save a few will be gone or no longer able to be installed or used. Your idea is a wise one for "some" games, but I do not see it working for my extensive library of games by saving full instalations of the game. I personally miss the trips to the brick n mortar stores and sometimes being first or even only person of my gaming group to have an own the game. I still goto Bestbuy and Gamestop every couple of weeks but sadly PC software is dwindling from the shelves.

[MrsWargamer]

Some of you boys I think like to argue to hear yourself argue

Fact, There is no game without Steam if you got it from Steam. That's not debatable. But feel free to argue.
Fact you can't install a Steam game without Steam.
Fact Steam HAS cut off people in the past. If you lose Steam access your games are gone.
Fact people do occasionally need to re do their machines, and it can be a hassle, especially if you have no internet at that instance.

I have bought Civilization V via hard copy off the shelf. All it gave me was a no download duration install option. There is no game without Steam though.Or I can just use the download option which is increasingly necessary with game patches updates dlc etc. The disks lose their worth eventually.

Now, if Matrix Games or Slitherine or both were to just die on us for any reason at all we lose access to them, not our games. We lose access to convenient re downloads, not our games. We lose access to forums, not our games. We lose access to stored lists of our serials, not our games. We lose access to new work done on the games through them, not necessarily the developers though, as they could be out there somewhere else and perfectly happy to continue evolving your game(s). But I have no idea what that might mean to your installer/serial.

I have my games on my laptop, on storage drives, on physical disks, and I could have them in the cloud if I wanted. If you have access to cloud storage and an internet connection you can install them anywhere you feel like. I have access to online storage as a response to my laptop brand (Asus perk). So I have a lot of redundant storage available to me. I also have all the Steam Keys on Steam which was very generous of Slitherine Group. So I could always have both methods open.

If Steam died tomorrow, Slitherine Group loses all that sales potential advertising route and really I am sure they would miss it.
I'm fairly sure if Slitherine Group died, Steam likely would not be able to continue selling the games. They don't own them.

I don't buy any of my games from Slitherine Group as physical purchase as it is a dumb waste of money, a pointless waste of 10 bucks. But hey, if some of you jus haaaaave to spend the 10 bucks, there is no reason to think they won't sell that way. It's not hurting Slitherine Group to sell that way I suppose. But I can and do download the games just fine, and then I shunt the files to my various places and then I can re install for whatever vague reason I might generate. It takes no effort to store the install and the serial number. And it takes no effort to re install them as well. Comparing mouse clicks employed is hilarious though And comparing installing from a file on my drive to speed of install from an online source, well here's your sign eh.

Men are not all created equal. Some of your boys really seem to hate that too

Feel free to continue arguing. I think some of you like it

[gexmex]

ORIGINAL: parusski


I have also never had any problem with Steam. The hatred of Steam makes no sense.

I'm with you. I'd be curious to know why the people that are locked out of their Steam accounts end up that way. Surely they must have done something improper to elicit that response from Valve. Just speculation though. Luckily, Matrix graciously gives folks the option to use Steam to download their games, or to not use Steam if it offends your sensibilities. This really shouldn't be such a big deal anymore. Use it if you like it, don't use it if you don't like it. There's no sense getting into a tizzy about it.

[t001001001]

Missus Wargamer, if ur trying to 'win friends and influence ppl'; calling a pack of grown ass men discussing client software: "boys", prolly isn't going to get u very far [:)] Maybe it's just me, but when someone calls me "boy", I consider it an insult. But it doesn't matter to the discussion.

-----------

I'm with you. I'd be curious to know why the people that are locked out of their Steam accounts end up that way.

I think so too, gexmex. I doubt a person getting banned from Steam and losing all their games is "John Q Innocent".

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

Many of our games are already on Steam. Buy from us (DRM free, yours forever) and get the free Steam key if you wish. Win-win.

Cheers

Pip

I think this pretty much sums everything up for me. I prefer DRM free and forever for a game. If Matrix and Slitherine (M&S here forward) offer their games on Steam then more power to them. I am thankful and glad that M&S do business the way they do. More options = more happy customers. No need for M&S to become Steam themselves. Let Steam do what they do and let M&S do what they do. If you want to get your M&S games on Steam then go to Steam to get them. But don't burden the rest of us "old farts" to do the same.

QED

[gradenko2k]

Can you install your "whole" library of games (providing you have 100's) on "one scan disk"? I can do that with Matrixgames setup.exe files.

That's irrelevant because the number of games sold on Matrix and size of their install bases versus that of Steam has no bearing on how intrusive the DRM is. If Matrix was the exclusive retailer of Max Payne 3 you'd balk at keeping that 35 GB installer exe on your drive too.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

Can you install your "whole" library of games (providing you have 100's) on "one scan disk"? I can do that with Matrixgames setup.exe files.

That's irrelevant because the number of games sold on Matrix and size of their install bases versus that of Steam has no bearing on how intrusive the DRM is. If Matrix was the exclusive retailer of Max Payne 3 you'd balk at keeping that 35 GB installer exe on your drive too.

And what happens if you lose the "scan disk"?

[aaatoysandmore]

Well, it always comes back to if you lose this or that but the main issue is the way Steam "forces" one to register and install their client. Matrixgames doesn't do that and I don't give squat about Max Payne 3 because that is not a wargame and at this point I'm only concerned with real wargames on real wargame sites like Matrixgames, Slitherine, Shrapnel, NWSonline, Schwerpunkt, Jeff Lapkoff games and Roo games. If you want to play an install kids games thas fine. I guess steam might be useful for that. But, atm I have nothing that size I need to store on my harddrive or flashdrive. As I said I have "every" Matrixgame game stored all in one place on 3 different media sources. You try doing that with your idea and way of storage. You'll have a whole sever box of harddrives and a much larger cost for storage that I will.

As far as DRM? Matrixgames has a very very simple one (a cd key), Steam does based on other developers and publishers I know that. Once again it's the "fact" steam is "required" and must be installed for those games to work and run the first time you install and try to play them. Matrixgames on the otherhand only require you to download them,(no client to install no forced installations of an unwanted client and you don't even have to register to buy the game from them) Steam is "nosey" Matrixgames is not. You have no idea what Steam installs on your computer when you install that client. You just take it for granted that Steam is an honest company. lol Like EA right? lol

Unfortunately the only games I've ever need steam for were the later releases of the Total War series of games. But, after this last release of Rome 2 I won't have to even worry about that anymore. The only games I have on there I would hate to lose is Shogun 2 and Crusader Kings II.

Of course I will admit to using steam but only for their $ 4 games mostly and of course a few of those Total War games that "required" steam. I would never dedicate my entire library of games to steam though and most especially ones I paid higher than $20 for. I do not like steam I will never like steam and I will never trust steam to a certain degree. But because they really have a monopoly I don't have much of a choice. I'm not 100% sure of this but I think you need to install the steam client even to download a demo; a fricking demo.

Oh there is one more game I got screwed on.. (by Paradox no less) they sold games of CKII on gamersgate when it first came out and you didn't need steam. I paid the full amount and bought it on Gamersgate. Then several weeks or months down the road they renigged on that site and you "HAD" to get all future patches from steam and you "HAD" to have a steam client on your computer to play it and download it from that point onward. Gotta love Paradox and the way they screw customers. Can't believe bairdlander has such a love for them.

Now, let's bring up some other things that have happened along the way not so much about steam but what could happen if something happened to steam. GOG.com a few years back took the site down for several days and no one, not anyone had access to their games or downloads while that site was down. We got no warning or anything. Just one day it was basically gone. But, the point here is all those games we bought on GOG we had no access to the download page for days. So if one hadn't backed up the setup.exe file (like I always do here, there, everywhere I can) those people that had bought games and use GOG specifially for storage just like many do steam would have been SOL for days. Of course eventually GoG came back up but we didn't have any reason there or why beforehand of why they disappeared.

Next scenario: Direct 2 Drive basically went bankrupt and out of business. What happened to our games? Well, here was their deal. They didn't open all those games up without DRM for us they sold us to GAMEFLY and GAMEFLY "forced" us to download their "client" (just like steam does) and then we could have access to our games from Direct 2 Drive. Now you might think that is fair but just like Steam I do not like GAMEFLY and do not like installing another intrusive client on my system. Do you recall Starforce? Surely you know the mess they created with their intrusive DRM scheme.

We are losing our freedoms of choice. There's too many blind lemmings online today. There's not a lot of people I've come in contact with that wants to read those EULA's. I think some people click that accept button like it was just a formality and don't even realize what they are agreeing too.

I only have a few years left, but if some people don't stop think and listen they are going to be in for a world of hurt someday when finally one of these "major" distribution sites does go out of business or bankrupt. Just food for thought. I'm not worried about it really because I can see the light at the end of the tunnel pretty clearly. I haven't been in business for 40 years and not learn a thing or two. [:)]

For Matrixgames and Slitherine though. Keep up the good work. Stay out of the steam and other distribution sites DRM schemes and requirements as long as you can. I'll continue to buy direct from you guys and stay far far away from steam. (Unless you have a $4.99 game on there I like) [:D]

[gradenko2k]

I don't give squat about Max Payne 3 because that is not a wargame and at this point I'm only concerned with real wargames on real wargame sites like Matrixgames, Slitherine, Shrapnel, NWSonline, Schwerpunkt, Jeff Lapkoff games and Roo games.

My point was that the only reason Matrix gets to skate by on "you can back-up all your installers!" is because the grognard wargaming genre is so incredibly small in terms of number of games and small in terms of literal hard drive size requirements.

It's an objective fact that a publisher can release a game on Steam whose DRM is lighter than what even Matrix uses - the fact that there are too many and too large games to all keep on a secondary drive is largely irrelevant. Wouldn't it be nice if we actually had so many wargames to play around with that the prospect of keeping all of their Matrix installers started to become onerous?

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

I don't give squat about Max Payne 3 because that is not a wargame and at this point I'm only concerned with real wargames on real wargame sites like Matrixgames, Slitherine, Shrapnel, NWSonline, Schwerpunkt, Jeff Lapkoff games and Roo games.

My point was that the only reason Matrix gets to skate by on "you can back-up all your installers!" is because the grognard wargaming genre is so incredibly small in terms of number of games and small in terms of literal hard drive size requirements.

It's an objective fact that a publisher can release a game on Steam whose DRM is lighter than what even Matrix uses - the fact that there are too many and too large games to all keep on a secondary drive is largely irrelevant. Wouldn't it be nice if we actually had so many wargames to play around with that the prospect of keeping all of their Matrix installers started to become onerous?

How is the DRM on Steam "lighter" than Matrix and Slitherine? I always thought Steam was pretty heavy on DRM. I mean they install their client on your computer and like it or not you can't play without that. Right? As one person has mentioned, what if Steam were ever to go belly up? What happens to all those who bought their games on Steam?

[aaatoysandmore]

Yeah but that's like IF's and But's.

If IF's and BUT's were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry christmas. [:D]

Thing is though we can argue back n forth (as we usuaully do on this subject) and you won't convince anyone to cross sides. The subject comes up once about every 3 to 6 months and Iain comes in or one of the moderators and closes the thread and everything cools down for awhile again. It's just one of those issues like Paradox games. Some people like them, some people don't and no matter how much you/I/bairdlander support one or the other side it still remains the same. Some will use steam some will always say it sucks. You know like the ole glass is half full or empty psychology trick? It's all good. Nobody is really losing (yet [:D]) We'll just have to resort to "wait and see".

But, for sure I hope you enjoy it and get what you want out of it. I even enjoy the $4 games out of it. I'm just not worried if I lose them though.....question is are you? [:'(]

[Greybriar]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

Many of our games are already on Steam. Buy from us (DRM free, yours forever) and get the free Steam key if you wish. Win-win.

Cheers

Pip

I think this pretty much sums everything up for me. I prefer DRM free and forever for a game. If Matrix and Slitherine (M&S here forward) offer their games on Steam then more power to them. I am thankful and glad that M&S do business the way they do. More options = more happy customers. No need for M&S to become Steam themselves. Let Steam do what they do and let M&S do what they do. If you want to get your M&S games on Steam then go to Steam to get them. But don't burden the rest of us "old farts" to do the same.

QED

+1

I couldn't have put it better myself.

[MrsWargamer]

ORIGINAL: t001001001

Missus Wargamer, if ur trying to 'win friends and influence ppl'; calling a pack of grown ass men discussing client software: "boys", prolly isn't going to get u very far [:)] Maybe it's just me, but when someone calls me "boy", I consider it an insult. But it doesn't matter to the discussion.

-----------

I'm with you. I'd be curious to know why the people that are locked out of their Steam accounts end up that way.

I think so too, gexmex. I doubt a person getting banned from Steam and losing all their games is "John Q Innocent".

You are irrational (that's my territory by the way) It would be irrational if I objected to you referring to me and Rhonda as 'girls'. I suggest you stop thinking of it as an insult. Because if I wanted to insult you, I can do a lot better normally Anyone 40 and under is a kid to me by the way. Just mentioning that. And no I have no idea how old you are.

[gradenko2k]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
How is the DRM on Steam "lighter" than Matrix and Slitherine? I always thought Steam was pretty heavy on DRM. I mean they install their client on your computer and like it or not you can't play without that. Right? As one person has mentioned, what if Steam were ever to go belly up? What happens to all those who bought their games on Steam?

There are DRM schemes available that do not require the Steam client at all past the very first installation.

[JFalk68]

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

Many of our games are already on Steam. Buy from us (DRM free, yours forever) and get the free Steam key if you wish. Win-win.

Cheers

Pip

It's not really the same thing, I am talking about every single game Matrix has made moved to a Steam like portal/app. A portal that screams wargaming and nothing else. It's all or nothing for me

There are so many positives going for Steam, it will update your game for you whenever a patch is released...no addional keys or codes to enter and you can configure to update with beta patches as well. It's all automatic. I have been a Steam member for years and I have never had a problem. People have been banned from Steam, just like people have been banned from forums and online gaming. Because they have been banned doesn't mean the Steam is bad, Steam was taking action against some people trying to do something they are not supposed to. Steam is hugely successful, they are working on Steam machines and all types of other stuff and they are making tons of money.

The guys who dont like Steam are like people who refuse to have direct deposit for their paychecks, they want a that actual check in their hands. People against Steam are Crypto-Fascists! These 2 guys are against Steam as well!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ-9R6NCZ0A