Scots Vote

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Zap
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Scots Vote

Post by Zap »

Sorry, unaware this was Already discussed, disregard.
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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by warspite1 »

Zap, there has already been one thread on this subject. The subject was calmly, sensibly and civilly debated by both sides - but was still locked as it was deemed political.

I suspect that this thread too will be locked, but until it is can I please ask you to amend the title? Asking if the Scots are free is a very strange thing to ask. The Scots, like the English, Welsh and Northern Irish, live in a democratic country. If they were not free peoples why do they have the vote? Why are they (some of them anyway Mr Salmond) being given the chance to vote on their future?

I know you mean no offence so can I respectfully ask you to change the title of the thread please?

Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: Scots vote

Post by Zap »

Oh, crap, how did I miss that? I was wondering why there was nothing. Since there was one already, no sense in repeating the topic.


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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by warspite1 »

In answer to your question, I am an Englishman so will give my opinion. Whilst I respect their right to choose, I will be hugely saddened if the Scots vote yes.

The Act of Union sealed in 1707 was just that; a Union whereby the people of Scotland have the same rights and freedoms as any Englishman. The United Kingdom is run from Westminster in England, but the MP’s that make up Parliament are representative of the population of the whole of the UK. I make this obvious statement as there are some that still seem to believe that the UK is some kind of Imperial Empire run by the English for the benefit of the English. It most certainly is not.

As an example I have two little warspites. As English children they do not have access to free University education, they do not have access to free medical prescriptions; their Scottish contemporaries do. And, by the way, the English are net payers to Scotland (just as London is a net payer to the English regions). But am I, as an English taxpayer, complaining about this? No, not at all.

If I pay for the Union why do I want it to remain within a larger United Kingdom?
I believe that the UK is a country greater than the sum of her parts. The people of the two Kingdoms (formerly three) a principality and a province have, together, been on the whole a force for so much that has been good (yes there have been not so great episodes just like with every other country). But together the British have out-punched their weight in the fields of science, literature, the arts, medicine, exploration, spreading democracy, not to mention getting rid of the odd tyrant or two. The Scots, like the Irish and the Welsh have played their part in all the above and more.

One of the things I find so puzzling about all this is that each of the four home nations has the best of both worlds. We have our own country, our own flag, our own national anthem – and there is varying degrees to which each country has its own parliament and rights to govern. We can hate and loathe each other on the football or rugby field (and really do!) and then work alongside each other as citizens of one country.

We have our own, very distinct identity, and yet we are also part of a wider United Kingdom. That larger body allows us certain strengths and privileges that will disappear if we separate. Make no mistake, all four countries will be worse off if the Union is broken up, but the people of Scotland will, I fear, be hit hardest.

The final thing I would say is that the way the No campaign has been run has been an utter disgrace. Waiting until the last moment to come out with statements to effectively frighten the people of Scotland into voting no is pathetic – and I wouldn’t blame any Scot for voting Yes just to show they are not intimidated. That said, the way Salmond has run the vote is equally disgraceful. Example: If you are a proud Scot, born and bred, but happen to be working (and thus living – albeit temporarily) in other parts of the UK or abroad, you get no vote on the future of your country.

But anyway, the vote will happen this week and then we will know. The people of Scotland are free to decide their future.

For me personally, if the answer is Yes, then it will be a sad day.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

In answer to your question, I am an Englishman so will give my opinion. Whilst I respect their right to choose, I will be hugely saddened if the Scots vote yes.

The Act of Union sealed in 1707 was just that; a Union whereby the people of Scotland have the same rights and freedoms as any Englishman. The United Kingdom is run from Westminster in England, but the MP’s that make up Parliament are representative of the population of the whole of the UK. I make this obvious statement as there are some that still seem to believe that the UK is some kind of Imperial Empire run by the English for the benefit of the English. It most certainly is not.

As an example I have two little warspites. As English children they do not have access to free University education, they do not have access to free medical prescriptions; their Scottish contemporaries do. And, by the way, the English are net payers to Scotland (just as London is a net payer to the English regions). But am I, as an English taxpayer, complaining about this? No, not at all.

If I pay for the Union why do I want it to remain within a larger United Kingdom?
I believe that the UK is a country greater than the sum of her parts. The people of the two Kingdoms (formerly three) a principality and a province have, together, been on the whole a force for so much that has been good (yes there have been not so great episodes just like with every other country). But together the British have out-punched their weight in the fields of science, literature, the arts, medicine, exploration, spreading democracy, not to mention getting rid of the odd tyrant or two. The Scots, like the Irish and the Welsh have played their part in all the above and more.

One of the things I find so puzzling about all this is that each of the four home nations has the best of both worlds. We have our own country, our own flag, our own national anthem – and there is varying degrees to which each country has its own parliament and rights to govern. We can hate and loathe each other on the football or rugby field (and really do!) and then work alongside each other as citizens of one country.

We have our own, very distinct identity, and yet we are also part of a wider United Kingdom. That larger body allows us certain strengths and privileges that will disappear if we separate. Make no mistake, all four countries will be worse off if the Union is broken up, but the people of Scotland will, I fear, be hit hardest.

The final thing I would say is that the way the No campaign has been run has been an utter disgrace. Waiting until the last moment to come out with statements to effectively frighten the people of Scotland into voting no is pathetic – and I wouldn’t blame any Scot for voting Yes just to show they are not intimidated. That said, the way Salmond has run the vote is equally disgraceful. Example: If you are a proud Scot, born and bred, but happen to be working (and thus living – albeit temporarily) in other parts of the UK or abroad, you get no vote on the future of your country.

But anyway, the vote will happen this week and then we will know. The people of Scotland are free to decide their future.

For me personally, if the answer is Yes, then it will be a sad day.

have to confess I come at this from the opposite point of view, but agree fully this is not about 'freedom' or some such braveheart idiocy. Scotland is collectively as free as the rest of the UK in a legal sense. Not least key things such as our legal and educational system were never part of the Union (the oddities of Scots Law being a bonus and millstone)

Where the issue lies is in terms of the political norms on offer. In the UK as a whole, the Labour Party is presented as the most feasible left of centre of choice. In Scotland, with its current policy mix, its well to the right of centre. So in terms of Westminster politics, Scotland has no realistic voice (many, even SNP supporters don't vote SNP for Westminster as its a waste of a vote). If we want a polity that reflects our political debate we need independence.

Couple of specifics:
And, by the way, the English are net payers to Scotland (just as London is a net payer to the English regions). But am I, as an English taxpayer, complaining about this? No, not at all.

I'm really sorry but this is not true. Scotland is a net contributor to the UK, what we get (the Barnett formula) is far less than we contribute.

Equally
Example: If you are a proud Scot, born and bred, but happen to be working (and thus living – albeit temporarily) in other parts of the UK or abroad, you get no vote on the future of your country.

is actually one of the triumphs. The old pre-80s SNP probably would have tried to come up with some wierd franchise based on blood and ethnicity. God knows how, but it would have been about defining who is a Scot. Not got a clue how, how many Grandparents of the right type? Length of time living in/out the country? Place of birth?

Pah, not even worth thinking of. Instead we have a vote based on presence on the electoral role. If you live in Scotland you have a say in its future. Yes, this produces oddities, but it makes the point this is not about Scottish nationalism, it is about the governance of Scotland.
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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by Curious »

I hope that the Scottish voters think with their intellects and not just their emotions on Thursday. Splitting off into a separate little country will be a hugh mistake for both Scotland and what's left of the UK. The rest of the world will be watching.
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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by warspite1 »

loki100

Re the matter of who pays what, I guess we will only truly see (what happens with tax and spending) in the future if there is a Yes vote.

Re the voting rules being a triumph, I guess we can agree to disagree on that to! [:)]


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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: Curious

I hope that the Scottish voters think with their intellects and not just their emotions on Thursday. Splitting off into a separate little country will be a hugh mistake for both Scotland and what's left of the UK. The rest of the world will be watching.

Can I suggest you are making the easy mistake of assuming anyone who shares your view is of course completely rational and anyone who doesn't must be working off emotion.

It really isn't that easy.

Crudely you can divide opinion in Scotland into 3 groups. One, lets say 20% believe that the only valid state of affairs is an independent Scotland. They don't care about anything else, its all secondary. Another, lets again say 20%, believe that there never can be an independent Scotland. Now in your categorisation, these people are voting with their 'intellects' and are rational.

Well? We had the joys of the Orange Order prancing around Edinburgh on Saturday urging a no vote. Why? Well a complex (& toxic) cocktail of fear of 'papacy' and that this would undermine the 1688 Settlement, as well as arguments derived from the more obscurantist bits of Calvinist Theology. You can rest assured, that chunk of the no vote ain't voting with their 'intellect'.

The rest of us, we're voting for what we believe is best for Scotland. That ranges from accepting the sort of argument that Warspite1 puts forward above to seeing, via independence, the door to a social democratic/socialist future. Now you may think this is wrong, but rest assured its no lack of 'intellect' gone into that argument.

If you look here, you'll see a set of policy papers prepared by the Jimmy Reid Institute (also known as the CommonWeal). There open in that they see independence as the opportunity to create a socially inclusive Scotland (as I say, this is not to say they are right, but they sure as hell have thought about it). Another set, here here by the Scotland Institute is more ambigious on the importance of independence but it too has put a lot of effort into an intellectual case either for Scotland post-independence or the future constitutional arrangements with the rest of the UK (& yes, I must confess, I am involved with it).

So please, its not 'intellect=no' (ie agree with you), emotion = yes (ie must disagree with you), there's no shortage of both on both sides of the debate.
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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: Curious

I hope that the Scottish voters think with their intellects and not just their emotions on Thursday. Splitting off into a separate little country will be a hugh mistake for both Scotland and what's left of the UK. The rest of the world will be watching.

Can I suggest you are making the easy mistake of assuming anyone who shares your view is of course completely rational and anyone who doesn't must be working off emotion.

It really isn't that easy.

Crudely you can divide opinion in Scotland into 3 groups. One, lets say 20% believe that the only valid state of affairs is an independent Scotland. They don't care about anything else, its all secondary. Another, lets again say 20%, believe that there never can be an independent Scotland. Now in your categorisation, these people are voting with their 'intellects' and are rational.

Well? We had the joys of the Orange Order prancing around Edinburgh on Saturday urging a no vote. Why? Well a complex (& toxic) cocktail of fear of 'papacy' and that this would undermine the 1688 Settlement, as well as arguments derived from the more obscurantist bits of Calvinist Theology. You can rest assured, that chunk of the no vote ain't voting with their 'intellect'.

The rest of us, we're voting for what we believe is best for Scotland. That ranges from accepting the sort of argument that Warspite1 puts forward above to seeing, via independence, the door to a social democratic/socialist future. Now you may think this is wrong, but rest assured its no lack of 'intellect' gone into that argument.

If you look here, you'll see a set of policy papers prepared by the Jimmy Reid Institute (also known as the CommonWeal). There open in that they see independence as the opportunity to create a socially inclusive Scotland (as I say, this is not to say they are right, but they sure as hell have thought about it). Another set, here here by the Scotland Institute is more ambigious on the importance of independence but it too has put a lot of effort into an intellectual case either for Scotland post-independence or the future constitutional arrangements with the rest of the UK (& yes, I must confess, I am involved with it).

So please, its not 'intellect=no' (ie agree with you), emotion = yes (ie must disagree with you), there's no shortage of both on both sides of the debate.
warspite1

Well said. Whilst I agree with the sentiment expressed by Curious re a Yes vote being a huge mistake, I completely agree that all those voting for Yes are not necessarily only doing so for the emotional buzz that an independent Scotland (back to Braveheart again [;)]) will give!

As you say, I am sure there are some, on both sides, who will vote with their heart, but I suspect, that most (again on both sides) will vote having considered what they think is right for Scotland.


Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by parusski »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Zap, there has already been one thread on this subject. The subject was calmly, sensibly and civilly debated by both sides - but was still locked as it was deemed political.

I suspect that this thread too will be locked, but until it is can I please ask you to amend the title? Asking if the Scots are free is a very strange thing to ask. The Scots, like the English, Welsh and Northern Irish, live in a democratic country. If they were not free peoples why do they have the vote? Why are they (some of them anyway Mr Salmond) being given the chance to vote on their future?

I know you mean no offence so can I respectfully ask you to change the title of the thread please?


I always find the thread locks over "POLITICS" so odd. Since "War is a mere continuation of politics by other means", I don't understand how we can even talk of war.
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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: parusski

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Zap, there has already been one thread on this subject. The subject was calmly, sensibly and civilly debated by both sides - but was still locked as it was deemed political.

I suspect that this thread too will be locked, but until it is can I please ask you to amend the title? Asking if the Scots are free is a very strange thing to ask. The Scots, like the English, Welsh and Northern Irish, live in a democratic country. If they were not free peoples why do they have the vote? Why are they (some of them anyway Mr Salmond) being given the chance to vote on their future?

I know you mean no offence so can I respectfully ask you to change the title of the thread please?


I always find the thread locks over "POLITICS" so odd. Since "War is a mere continuation of politics by other means", I don't understand how we can even talk of war.
warspite1

Thanks for that von Clausewitz [;)]

Love this interchange - especially when he calls him von [:D]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HnaBdYAqBw
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by parusski »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: parusski

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Zap, there has already been one thread on this subject. The subject was calmly, sensibly and civilly debated by both sides - but was still locked as it was deemed political.

I suspect that this thread too will be locked, but until it is can I please ask you to amend the title? Asking if the Scots are free is a very strange thing to ask. The Scots, like the English, Welsh and Northern Irish, live in a democratic country. If they were not free peoples why do they have the vote? Why are they (some of them anyway Mr Salmond) being given the chance to vote on their future?

I know you mean no offence so can I respectfully ask you to change the title of the thread please?


I always find the thread locks over "POLITICS" so odd. Since "War is a mere continuation of politics by other means", I don't understand how we can even talk of war.
warspite1

Thanks for that von Clausewitz [;)]

Love this interchange - especially when he calls him von [:D]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HnaBdYAqBw

Thanks, I had forgotten that scene. Von indeed.
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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by goodwoodrw »

How is this going to work the vote that is? Majority rules, 75% of the vote or the majority of voting electorates?
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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: BASB

How is this going to work the vote that is? Majority rules, 75% of the vote or the majority of voting electorates?
warspite1

It is a simple "majority wins" basis.
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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by wings7 »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

In answer to your question, I am an Englishman so will give my opinion. Whilst I respect their right to choose, I will be hugely saddened if the Scots vote yes.

The Act of Union sealed in 1707 was just that; a Union whereby the people of Scotland have the same rights and freedoms as any Englishman. The United Kingdom is run from Westminster in England, but the MP’s that make up Parliament are representative of the population of the whole of the UK. I make this obvious statement as there are some that still seem to believe that the UK is some kind of Imperial Empire run by the English for the benefit of the English. It most certainly is not.

As an example I have two little warspites. As English children they do not have access to free University education, they do not have access to free medical prescriptions; their Scottish contemporaries do. And, by the way, the English are net payers to Scotland (just as London is a net payer to the English regions). But am I, as an English taxpayer, complaining about this? No, not at all.

If I pay for the Union why do I want it to remain within a larger United Kingdom?
I believe that the UK is a country greater than the sum of her parts. The people of the two Kingdoms (formerly three) a principality and a province have, together, been on the whole a force for so much that has been good (yes there have been not so great episodes just like with every other country). But together the British have out-punched their weight in the fields of science, literature, the arts, medicine, exploration, spreading democracy, not to mention getting rid of the odd tyrant or two. The Scots, like the Irish and the Welsh have played their part in all the above and more.

One of the things I find so puzzling about all this is that each of the four home nations has the best of both worlds. We have our own country, our own flag, our own national anthem – and there is varying degrees to which each country has its own parliament and rights to govern. We can hate and loathe each other on the football or rugby field (and really do!) and then work alongside each other as citizens of one country.

We have our own, very distinct identity, and yet we are also part of a wider United Kingdom. That larger body allows us certain strengths and privileges that will disappear if we separate. Make no mistake, all four countries will be worse off if the Union is broken up, but the people of Scotland will, I fear, be hit hardest.

The final thing I would say is that the way the No campaign has been run has been an utter disgrace. Waiting until the last moment to come out with statements to effectively frighten the people of Scotland into voting no is pathetic – and I wouldn’t blame any Scot for voting Yes just to show they are not intimidated. That said, the way Salmond has run the vote is equally disgraceful. Example: If you are a proud Scot, born and bred, but happen to be working (and thus living – albeit temporarily) in other parts of the UK or abroad, you get no vote on the future of your country.

But anyway, the vote will happen this week and then we will know. The people of Scotland are free to decide their future.

For me personally, if the answer is Yes, then it will be a sad day.

Robert, I feel the same way you do! I also feel the same way that Paul McCartney does about Ireland. Peace Brother!

Patrick
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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: wings7

ORIGINAL: warspite1

In answer to your question, I am an Englishman so will give my opinion. Whilst I respect their right to choose, I will be hugely saddened if the Scots vote yes.

The Act of Union sealed in 1707 was just that; a Union whereby the people of Scotland have the same rights and freedoms as any Englishman. The United Kingdom is run from Westminster in England, but the MP’s that make up Parliament are representative of the population of the whole of the UK. I make this obvious statement as there are some that still seem to believe that the UK is some kind of Imperial Empire run by the English for the benefit of the English. It most certainly is not.

As an example I have two little warspites. As English children they do not have access to free University education, they do not have access to free medical prescriptions; their Scottish contemporaries do. And, by the way, the English are net payers to Scotland (just as London is a net payer to the English regions). But am I, as an English taxpayer, complaining about this? No, not at all.

If I pay for the Union why do I want it to remain within a larger United Kingdom?
I believe that the UK is a country greater than the sum of her parts. The people of the two Kingdoms (formerly three) a principality and a province have, together, been on the whole a force for so much that has been good (yes there have been not so great episodes just like with every other country). But together the British have out-punched their weight in the fields of science, literature, the arts, medicine, exploration, spreading democracy, not to mention getting rid of the odd tyrant or two. The Scots, like the Irish and the Welsh have played their part in all the above and more.

One of the things I find so puzzling about all this is that each of the four home nations has the best of both worlds. We have our own country, our own flag, our own national anthem – and there is varying degrees to which each country has its own parliament and rights to govern. We can hate and loathe each other on the football or rugby field (and really do!) and then work alongside each other as citizens of one country.

We have our own, very distinct identity, and yet we are also part of a wider United Kingdom. That larger body allows us certain strengths and privileges that will disappear if we separate. Make no mistake, all four countries will be worse off if the Union is broken up, but the people of Scotland will, I fear, be hit hardest.

The final thing I would say is that the way the No campaign has been run has been an utter disgrace. Waiting until the last moment to come out with statements to effectively frighten the people of Scotland into voting no is pathetic – and I wouldn’t blame any Scot for voting Yes just to show they are not intimidated. That said, the way Salmond has run the vote is equally disgraceful. Example: If you are a proud Scot, born and bred, but happen to be working (and thus living – albeit temporarily) in other parts of the UK or abroad, you get no vote on the future of your country.

But anyway, the vote will happen this week and then we will know. The people of Scotland are free to decide their future.

For me personally, if the answer is Yes, then it will be a sad day.

Robert, I feel the same way you do! I also feel the same way that Paul McCartney does about Ireland. Peace Brother!

Patrick
warspite1

Well that is a subject definitely best kept off the forum. Suffice to say that whatever decisions were/weren't made, it was a case of politicians dealing with a situation handed down from history - with polar opposites to contend with. I am quite sure there are very few, if indeed any, on either side of the religious (Catholic/Protestant) and nationalist (Irish/Northern Irish/British) divide that don't wish that things would have been dealt with differently by all parties. Sad thing of course is that there is little likelihood of agreement on how it should have been handled, even if we could turn back time to put things right [:(]

All we can do is move on. BTW I'm an English Protestant, Mrs W is from Irish Catholic decent. My little warspites are being brought up in the Catholic faith. There should be no reason we can't all get along - well except for Mr and Mrs W of course, there is no hope for peace there as we fight like cat and dog [:D].
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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by wings7 »

Well that is a subject definitely best kept off the forum. Suffice to say that whatever decisions were/weren't made, it was a case of politicians dealing with a situation handed down from history - with polar opposites to contend with. I am quite sure there are very few, if indeed any, on either side of the religious (Catholic/Protestant) and nationalist (Irish/Northern Irish/British) divide that don't wish that things would have been dealt with differently by all parties. Sad thing of course is that there is little likelihood of agreement on how it should have been handled, even if we could turn back time to put things right [:(]

All we can do is move on. BTW I'm an English Protestant, Mrs W is from Irish Catholic decent. My little warspites are being brought up in the Catholic faith. There should be no reason we can't all get along - well except for Mr and Mrs W of course, there is no hope for peace there as we fight like cat and dog [:D].

Robert, yes there is no reason we why we can't get along, I too am of Irish Catholic decent and was married to a Protestant gal, the marriage did not last [:(] but we never fought or disagreed about one's faith [:)]...Peace Everyone!

Patrick
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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by PipFromSlitherine »

ORIGINAL: loki100

And, by the way, the English are net payers to Scotland (just as London is a net payer to the English regions). But am I, as an English taxpayer, complaining about this? No, not at all.

I'm really sorry but this is not true. Scotland is a net contributor to the UK, what we get (the Barnett formula) is far less than we contribute.
That is incorrect. The Barnett formula applies only to public spending. When you factor in actual spending each scot gets ~ 2-3K more than they put in (depending upon how you decide oil revenue should be split).

For a good explanation try: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-16477990

The whole thing is making me very sad. Perhaps the new politics of division and "them vs us" is unstoppable if a prosperous nations like the UK can't resist it.

Cheers

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RE: Scots Are they free

Post by berto »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

BTW I'm an English Protestant, Mrs W is from Irish Catholic decent ... we fight like cat and dog [:D].
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Location: England

RE: Scots Are they free

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: berto

ORIGINAL: warspite1

BTW I'm an English Protestant, Mrs W is from Irish Catholic decent ... we fight like cat and dog [:D].
Cat and Prot? [:)]
warspite1

[:)]
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
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