search planes with camera

[guctony]

Does search planes with camera improve detection level of the search. If so recons planes will have a new task from me.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: guctony

Does search planes with camera improve detection level of the search. If so recons planes will have a new task from me.

I do not believe so.

[Alfred]

Read my posts, in particular #7, in this thread.
 
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3587738&mpage=1&key=camera&#3589236
 
Alfred

[guctony]

Well I read it the post but there is no direct answer to my question.

Does recon planes with camera give better DL results in naval search mode was my question

[Alfred]

Well re read all my posts in that thread again as it gives you the exact answer to your query.

Alfred

Edit: Also read s.10.1.1.1 of the manual. Obviously my fault for having assumed your question was based on informed knowledge of how the game operates. I keep on making this mistake of treating people who have been "playing" this game for years have actually learnt anything in the process.

[Trugrit]

Alfred,

This may be something in the manual that needs clarification.
What about the pilot’s check?

From the manual on page 220, 10.2 Recon Flights:

“Each enemy unit is checked separately to see if the pilot has successfully spotted the unit:
»If a recon aircraft type is flying a Recon Mission, the percentage chance
that any given unit will have its DL increased is equal to the Experience of the pilot.
If the DL is increased, it will increase by 4.

»If a non-recon type plane is flying a Recon Mission, the percentage chance
that any given unit will have its DL increased is equal to the
Experience of the pilot divided by 2. If the DL is increased it will increase by 2.

»If an air unit bombs any enemy target, the percentage chance that any given unit in the
target hex will have its DL increased is equal to the Experience of the one pilot chosen at
random to take reconnaissance photos divided by 2. If the DL is increased it will increase by 1.”

First:
For me, the manual is not clear on this.
Is the manual saying that there are two checks done?
The First check is to see if the enemy unit has been spotted.
The second check is done to see if the DL (Detection Level) is increased and pilot experience
is used for that.

Or, is the manual saying that there is only one check done for each enemy unit using pilot
Experience only.

I think it’s the former but I’m not sure because of the way it’s written.
Search, spotting and DL increase is rather complex in this game.
The manual is out of date in some areas.

Second:
Does the pilot experience check still exist? Has it gone over to pilot recon skill?

In post #7 you say:
“The benefit of having a "working" camera is that it provides a random 0-3 boost
to DL after passing the pilot's recon skill level check.” That could be the spotting check.
But it also seems to conflict with what the manual is saying about DL; that
it’s a pilot’s experience check that’s performed for the DL and if DL increases
it will not be at random but will increase by 4.

The reason I say that it seems to conflict is that the manual could be
talking about planes without a camera or the manual could be out of date on this.
Camera modifications could have been added later.

The manual doesn’t say anything about a random 0-3 DL boost because of a camera,
but cameras were always in the game because the manual on page 150 says photoreconnaissance.
Then on page 220 it talks about pilot experience checks for DL increase without
saying anything about cameras. So, it looks like at some point DL increase due
to cameras was changed and that change did not make it into the manual.
I’ve not been able to find when the change was made.
I’ve not been able to find out what that camera change did to the pilot experience check.

As you have indicated the camera is plane hardware (plane modifier).
Skill checks are (pilot modifier).

Are different pilot skills needed depending on whether or not the plane has a camera?
If that’s the case then you may need high experience when the plane has a camera
and you may need high pilot recon skill when the plane doesn’t have a camera.
That explanation would make a lot of sense because with a camera the pilot would
need technical skill and without a camera he just needs high recon spotting skills.

If you set training for a recon group the game defaults to recon training so
pilot recon skill seems to be the most important pilot skill on recon missions
even if the game picks pilots with a preference for pilot experience.
I’ve done a few sandbox runs on this. Per my limited sandbox pilot recon skill
becomes much more important as altitude increases.

The other factor is of course the target.
The manual says the recon mission looks at every unit in the hex.
If there are 12 ground units in the hex and the recon mission fails to spot 11 of the units
But spots just one small unit does that raise the DL of the entire group?
That also would mean that you may be able to get by with low pilot recon skill.
Also there maybe some modifiers for terrain, weather, and altitude.

Pilot Experience, Cameras and bombing missions:

Per the manual (page 150, page 220)
If an air unit bombs any enemy target one pilot chosen at random takes photos.
DL increase is equal to the pilot’s experience divided by 2.
If DL is increased it will increase by 1.

To take a photo the pilot needs a camera.

Bombers don’t have a camera device but some units can perform recon.
Per michaelm:
“For a Camera device to work it needs to have some 'effect' value.
This is used to increase the DL when recon is run.
It is also used to trigger the RECON mission option for non-recon type planes.

Bombing is not the same as the recon mission option that michaelm was talking about above.

If the camera fix is in for bomber recon missions then it may be in for bombing missions.
Is a non-recon plane camera modifier triggered for bombing missions?
If so, as before, what do cameras do to the pilot experience check?

I’m inclined to think it may just be the pilot check (Pilot experience or pilot recon check?)
because per the manual all you can get is a DL increase of 1 at best unless that’s changed.
I don’t think there would be much point in giving you a random modifier of just 0 or 1 if the
game checks the same using pilot experience or pilot recon skill.

Can you clarify this?

Thanks much.

K

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Trugrit

Alfred,

This may be something in the manual that needs clarification.
What about the pilot’s check?

From the manual on page 220, 10.2 Recon Flights:

“Each enemy unit is checked separately to see if the pilot has successfully spotted the unit:
»If a recon aircraft type is flying a Recon Mission, the percentage chance
that any given unit will have its DL increased is equal to the Experience of the pilot.
If the DL is increased, it will increase by 4.

»If a non-recon type plane is flying a Recon Mission, the percentage chance
that any given unit will have its DL increased is equal to the
Experience of the pilot divided by 2. If the DL is increased it will increase by 2.

»If an air unit bombs any enemy target, the percentage chance that any given unit in the
target hex will have its DL increased is equal to the Experience of the one pilot chosen at
random to take reconnaissance photos divided by 2. If the DL is increased it will increase by 1.”

First:
For me, the manual is not clear on this.
Is the manual saying that there are two checks done?
The First check is to see if the enemy unit has been spotted.
The second check is done to see if the DL (Detection Level) is increased and pilot experience
is used for that.

Or, is the manual saying that there is only one check done for each enemy unit using pilot
Experience only.

I think it’s the former but I’m not sure because of the way it’s written.
Search, spotting and DL increase is rather complex in this game.
The manual is out of date in some areas.




S.10.1.2 of the manual has to be read in conjunction. The MDL, if less than the new DL, automatically gets increased to the new DL level.

Recon missions are point to point whereas naval search/ASW are area searches. The two are treated different.

A recon mission on a land "object" (be it permanent installation such as a base, or mobile such as a LCU) uses the pilot's recon skill value, not his overall experience value. The manual's use of the term "experience" is inexact.


Second:
Does the pilot experience check still exist? Has it gone over to pilot recon skill?

In post #7 you say:
“The benefit of having a "working" camera is that it provides a random 0-3 boost
to DL after passing the pilot's recon skill level check.” That could be the spotting check.
But it also seems to conflict with what the manual is saying about DL; that
it’s a pilot’s experience check that’s performed for the DL and if DL increases
it will not be at random but will increase by 4.

The reason I say that it seems to conflict is that the manual could be
talking about planes without a camera or the manual could be out of date on this.
Camera modifications could have been added later.
The manual doesn’t say anything about a random 0-3 DL boost because of a camera,
but cameras were always in the game because the manual on page 150 says photoreconnaissance.
Then on page 220 it talks about pilot experience checks for DL increase without
saying anything about cameras. So, it looks like at some point DL increase due
to cameras was changed and that change did not make it into the manual.
I’ve not been able to find when the change was made.
I’ve not been able to find out what that camera change did to the pilot experience check.

As you have indicated the camera is plane hardware (plane modifier).
Skill checks are (pilot modifier).


The manual was finalised before the game code was finalised. The section on recon missions has to cover both planes which have and which do not have cameras installed. S. 10.2 which you quote above has the DL benefits outlined in tabular format at s.10.1.1.3. That table lists only 1 variable random value (applicable when return fire at ships occurs), the other DL increases are fixed. Thus my quoted post which refers to a random 0-3 DL increase refers to a bonus boost over that obtained from a camera less plane piloted by the same pilot.

Are different pilot skills needed depending on whether or not the plane has a camera?

No. It is only the recon skill value for a recon mission. For a naval search or ASW mission, the relevant pilot skill is naval search or ASW respectively.

If that’s the case then you may need high experience when the plane has a camera
and you may need high pilot recon skill when the plane doesn’t have a camera.
That explanation would make a lot of sense because with a camera the pilot would
need technical skill and without a camera he just needs high recon spotting skills.

Not really. It is only the relevant pilot skill (again not experience) which counts towards passing the check. Once passed the hardware can provide a bonus increase to the "hardwired" benefit which ensues from passing the check.

If you set training for a recon group the game defaults to recon training so
pilot recon skill seems to be the most important pilot skill on recon missions
even if the game picks pilots with a preference for pilot experience.

Pilot experience is not the yardstick.

I’ve done a few sandbox runs on this. Per my limited sandbox pilot recon skill
becomes much more important as altitude increases.

The other factor is of course the target.
The manual says the recon mission looks at every unit in the hex.
If there are 12 ground units in the hex and the recon mission fails to spot 11 of the units
But spots just one small unit does that raise the DL of the entire group?
That also would mean that you may be able to get by with low pilot recon skill.
Also there maybe some modifiers for terrain, weather, and altitude.

Pilot Experience, Cameras and bombing missions:

Per the manual (page 150, page 220)
If an air unit bombs any enemy target one pilot chosen at random takes photos.
DL increase is equal to the pilot’s experience divided by 2.
If DL is increased it will increase by 1.

To take a photo the pilot needs a camera.

It is abstracted. Only 3 categories of planes can be given a recon mission:

(a) a specialised recon plane, whether equipped with or without a camera
(b) level, dive, torpedo bomber types, patrol and float planes, whether equipped with or without a camera
(c) any other aircraft type which is equipped with a camera

Because it is abstracted, a pilot flying a recon type plane not equipped with a camera is still considered to have taken "a photo".

You should look at Japanese recon type planes and note how many are equipped with a camera.[:)]


Bombers don’t have a camera device but some units can perform recon.
Per michaelm:
“For a Camera device to work it needs to have some 'effect' value.
This is used to increase the DL when recon is run.
It is also used to trigger the RECON mission option for non-recon type planes.

Bombing is not the same as the recon mission option that michaelm was talking about above.

If the camera fix is in for bomber recon missions then it may be in for bombing missions.
Is a non-recon plane camera modifier triggered for bombing missions?
If so, as before, what do cameras do to the pilot experience check?

As stated before, cameras do zilch for the pilot recon skill value.

I’m inclined to think it may just be the pilot check (Pilot experience or pilot recon check?)
because per the manual all you can get is a DL increase of 1 at best unless that’s changed.
I don’t think there would be much point in giving you a random modifier of just 0 or 1 if the
game checks the same using pilot experience or pilot recon skill.

Can you clarify this?

Thanks much.

K

Chapter 10 of the manual is not well understood by many players. Whilst all the basic information is there, the devs subsequently provided important clarification, much of it caught by my post and the hyperlink provided.

Alfred

[Trugrit]

Thanks Alfred,

That explains a lot.

I have looked at Japanese recon planes.
Your post explains why in my sandbox I'm getting excellent
recon results using Japanese planes without cameras
at 30,000 feet.

Not just good binoculars.[;)]

[witpqs]

Alfred,

This bit (from your linked thread)

3. A camera on a non designated "recon" type aircraft type which has an effect value of zero is "chrome".

might have been changed at some point as the developers worked with FB (or others) with cameras that were in practice dedicated to recon. I did not find a note on that in the patch notes (full & Beta), but it bears checking with your internal developer sources.