Cold War Database 1946-1979 Platform Requests

[.Sirius]

Hi all notes have been noted

ORIGINAL: Broncepulido

My results on the Skate-class research some time ago. For me the most distictive point is an increment in speed after the reactor power increase probably on the earlier overhauls (from 6600shp (Conway's) or 7300 shp ("Cold War Submarines") S3W in SSN-578 and SSN-583 and the same reactor with different arrangement S4W in SSN-579 and SSN-584).
Skate-class submerged speed 12/1957-1962: 18 knots (this value is reflected in more "serious" books, but I think is the original speed value, it can reflect the 6600 shp power).
Skate-class submerged speed 1963-6/1989: 22 knots (value reflected for years on many books, or as "20+ knots", it can reflect the 7300 shp power).

Some sources:
Notes of autor Jim Christley"informed guesses" in the four page of Osprey's New Vanguard number 138 "US Nuclear Submarines - the fast attack", 2007: speed 15/18 (clearly previously to the reactor replacement), test depth 700 ft. Also with Mk14, Mk16 and Mk37 torpedoes originally (perhaps also Mk27, Mk35 and Mk45 ASTOR (1963-1976).
On Norman Friedman's "US Submarines from 1945", Naval Institute Press 1994: submarine data page 243, speed 15,5/18, test depth 700 ft (probably Christley get his data here).
6x533mm Mk56 bow tubes with 18 long torpedoes.
2x533mm Mk57 stern tubes (sometimes calles "countermeasures tubes") with 4 short torpedoes (as Mk37).
Original sonars: active SQS-4 Mod 1, passive BQR-2B (with BQS-4, added 1963?), later added mine-detection sonar BQS-8, also with SS-2 surface search radar (later BPS-12), torpedo Warner QXB-3 to be replaced with WLR-2 (very probably also DUUG-1 Velox, employed on all the US SSNs to Sturgeon-class inclusive), BLR-1, AS-371 and WLR-3 DF system (ESM), and BRA-34 radio mast (page 128).
On Norman Polmar "Cold War Submarines", Brassey's 2004: page 70, the same speed values of 15,5/18 knots and 700 ft deep.

On navsource.org http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08578.htm 23 knots surfaced and 18+ knots submerged!

About the speed increase is only my "informed guess", but I will persist on the trail ...

[.Sirius]

Hi Skates should be in there

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

Can we please see the Skate class (SSN-578) for the CWDB please. Thanks

-C

[Randomizer]

ORIGINAL: .Sirius

Hi Skates should be in there

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

Can we please see the Skate class (SSN-578) for the CWDB please. Thanks

-C

In CWDB Build 471 there are six versions of SSN-571 Nautilus but no SSN-578 Skates that I could find.

[.Sirius]

Hi just checked the DB like you they were there originaly somethings happened somewhere, Ill re add them to the DB many thanks again for picking this up

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

ORIGINAL: .Sirius

Hi Skates should be in there

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

Can we please see the Skate class (SSN-578) for the CWDB please. Thanks

-C

In CWDB Build 471 there are six versions of SSN-571 Nautilus but no SSN-578 Skates that I could find.

[Randomizer]

Hi just checked the DB like you they were there originaly somethings happened somewhere, Ill re add them to the DB many thanks again for picking this up.

Hey Paul,

If it's any help the Skate class is present in CWDB v400 but disappear in CWDB v402 and are missing in all subsequent versions.

-C

[.Sirius]

Yeah noticed that too, must have been sunk somewhere when I get the DB of Rag sometime today I will be updating the DB with all additions and changes in the CWDB thread

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

Hi just checked the DB like you they were there originaly somethings happened somewhere, Ill re add them to the DB many thanks again for picking this up.

Hey Paul,

If it's any help the Skate class is present in CWDB v400 but disappear in CWDB v402 and are missing in all subsequent versions.

-C

[e2204588]

85mm D-44 should NOT be able to attack aircraft.

[.Sirius]

Noted will amend

ORIGINAL: fool12342000

85mm D-44 should NOT be able to attack aircraft.

[.Sirius]

Hi re added to DB

ORIGINAL: .Sirius

Yeah noticed that too, must have been sunk somewhere when I get the DB of Rag sometime today I will be updating the DB with all additions and changes in the CWDB thread

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

Hi just checked the DB like you they were there originaly somethings happened somewhere, Ill re add them to the DB many thanks again for picking this up.

Hey Paul,

If it's any help the Skate class is present in CWDB v400 but disappear in CWDB v402 and are missing in all subsequent versions.

-C

[.Sirius]

Hi speeds will be reflected in next db release

ORIGINAL: Broncepulido

Skipjack

About the Skipjack speeds (speeds and test deeps are still classified):
I did some research a few years ago.
The answer is very probably:
Skipjack-class speed 1959-1968: 33 knots.
Skipjack-class speed 1963-1991: 29 knots.
Some hints: with ever increasing displacement, the Skipjack, Tresher/Permit and Sturgeon have the same S5W nuclear power plant.
Some sources:
Notes of autor Jim Christley"informed guesses" in the four page of Osprey's New Vanguard number 138 "US Nuclear Submarines - the fast attack", 2007: speed 15/29 (clearly after the screw replacement), test depth 700 ft.
On Norman Friedman's "US Submarines from 1946", Naval Institute Press 1994: submarine data page 243, speed 15/29, test depth 700 ft (probably Christley get his data here).
On Norman Polmar "Cold War Submarines", Brassey's 2004: page 135 "She achieved just under 33 knots submerged with her original, five-bladed propeller, this was 15 knots faster than the previous Skate-class SSNs", page 136 "However,the Skipjack had minimal quieting features. A later change in propeller - to a seven-blade, slower turning propeller to reduce cavitation as well as shaft noise - reduced her speed" (I don't remember now how I get the 1961 date for screw change). Table on page 146: test depth 700 ft, speed 33 knots (with note about speed reduction after screw change).

I think my initial deduction (1961) of the propeller change from the old five-blades ones on the Skipjack-class boats in 1961 is derived of the in service date of January 1961 of the first Thresher-class boat, with seven-blade propeller. Now I see it probably was changed first as earlier date on the Skipjack 1962-1963 overhaul, and the last propeller changed was probably that of Sculpin on her 1968-1969 overhaul.

[.Sirius]

Added modified Allem M. Sumner Class to reflect USS Maddox 1964 configuration will be named (USS Maddox) in the comments box

ORIGINAL: .Sirius

Hi Noted will update

ORIGINAL: Ogier

With the recent fiftieth anniversary of the Gulf of Tonkin incident and the already existing Command scenario in mind, I humbly request a mid-sixties version of the non FRAM-modified Allen M. Sumner class as an additional platform for the Command CWDB. They show marked differences compared to the 1953 non FRAM version currently available in the CWDB.

And as it is probably the most famous non FRAM Sumner (and a scenario already exists for it), I would propose to model the new DB entry after the 1964 USS Maddox (DD-731) -- United States (Navy), 1964-1972 (thereafter to China Taiwan as “Po Yang”).

In the current version of the Tonkin Gulf scenario (Miguel Molinas “Gulf of Tonkin incident”), the USS Maddox is represented by a FRAM II Allen M. Sumner class. But the Maddox never got a standard FRAM II refit. She rather received a more limited refit, which left her with a modernized sensor and weapon fit, but without a lot of the typical FRAM II characteristics (like air facilities). The final (?) refit was right before its fateful 1964 cruise and resulted in a configuration currently not covered by the existing DB entries.

So, as far as I could figure it out, the 1964-1972 Maddox characteristics would be something like this (compared to the existing DB entries):

General Data: like existing DB entries (Captain Ogier mentions 288 as war time complement, BuPers complement as 234 and 1964 WestPac manning level as 193, so one of these values could be substituted for crew number…)

Properties: no HIFR (like 1953 Sumner)

Air Facilities: none (like 1953 Sumner)

Sensors/EW:
Air Search: AN/SPS-40 (unlike FRAM II DB entry (15 FRAM II Sumners did have AN/SPS-40 though), unlike 1953 Sumner)
Surface Search: AN/SPS-10B (like FRAM II)
Forward (main) Director: Mk 37 GFCS with Mk 25 radar (Mk 25) (like 1953 Sumner)
Aft Director: AN/SPG-35 (Mk 56 GFCD) (like 1953 Sumner)
Sonar: AN/SQS-32A (unlike 1953 Sumner, unlike FRAM II (as far as I understand it, AN/SQS-32 is an upgrade (RDT capable) of the 14 kHz version (mod.4) of AN/SQS-4))
ESM: some sort of AN/WLR-1 ? (like FRAM II – but with just one AS-571/SLR antenna assembly???)
ECM: maybe AN/ULQ-6, can’t identify ECM on pictures though…
(Remark: no VDS)

Mounts:
2x Mk11 Hedgehog ASW Mortar - forward firing; left/right of bridge
3x 127mm/38 Mk32 Twin - 2x twin mount forward (superfiring), 1x twin mount aft
2x 76mm/50 Mk33 Twin without on mount AN/SPG-34 fc – 1x centerline aft, 1x on aft deck house, facing aft, offset to port (unlike FRAM II, unlike 1953 Sumner)
2x 324mm Mk32 TT Triple – 1x port, 1x starboard (like FRAM II)
1x Mk9 Depth Charge Rack - stern
1x T Mk 6 Fanfare (like FRAM II) - stern
(Remark: no 76mm/50 singles, no on mount radar directors, no depth Charge Projectors)

Magazines:
Mk44 [External Tubes] (like FRAM II)
Mk11 Hedgehog ASW Mortar (like FRAM II)
Signatures:
Like existing DB entries
Comms/Datalinks:
Like existing DB entries
Propulsion:
Like existing DB entries

Note: Configurations of non FRAM Sumners during the sixties vary quite considerably over time and between ships. So the above configuration is just one amongst a rather bewildering amount of possible sensor/weapon configurations. But for the most part it should be rather representative. One notable exception: Maddox might have been the only non FRAM Sumner with AN/SPS-40 (instead of AN/SPS-37).

Some sources:
Ogier: USS Maddox “July-August DESOTO Patrol…” dated 24 Aug.
Ogier: USS Maddox "Report of Action, Gulf of Tonkin, 2 August 1964" dated 24 Aug.
Amico, Pittenger: “A Brief History of Active Sonar”, Aquatic Mammals 2009
Hanyok: “Spartans in Darkness: American SIGINT and the Indochina War, 1945-1975”
Moïse: “Tonkin Gulf And the Escalation of the Vietnam War”
Various Jane’s Fighting Ships editions
Various photographs available online
Various trawls through the web

[.Sirius]

Will add Generic Country Sutherland Flying boat to DB

ORIGINAL: BASB

What the chance of some RAF WW2 Coastal Command a/c Sunderland or some others to search for German subs in WW2 scenarios. Please[:D]

[Usili]

Slight issue with the F-111E Aardvark loadout.

The CBU-71/B CB regular loadout only has eight CBU-71/B CBs, while the long range loadout has sixteen CBU-71/B CBs with the DECM pod, and both drop tanks. Noticed it when scrolling through the Aardvark loadouts for something I was thinking of.

[.Sirius]

Thanks noted

ORIGINAL: Usili

Slight issue with the F-111E Aardvark loadout.

The CBU-71/B CB regular loadout only has eight CBU-71/B CBs, while the long range loadout has sixteen CBU-71/B CBs with the DECM pod, and both drop tanks. Noticed it when scrolling through the Aardvark loadouts for something I was thinking of.

[Mgellis]

A couple of requests, some of the more popular commercial and civil aircraft of the period, good for adding more local flavor, etc...

DC-3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_DC-3
http://www.douglasdc3.com/dc3specs/dc3specs.htm
http://www.airliners.net/aircraft-data/ ... ain?id=188

Lockheed Model 14 Super Electra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_M ... er_Electra
http://runway24l.blogspot.com/2006/12/l ... ectra.html
http://www.aviastar.org/air/usa/lok_superelectra.php

Howard DGA-15
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_DGA-15
http://howardaircraft.org/DGA_15.htm
http://goldenageofaviation.org/dga.html
http://www.flugzeuginfo.net/acdata_php/ ... a15_en.php

Piper J-3 Cub
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_J-3_Cub
http://www.pilotfriend.com/aircraft%20p ... er/1/1.htm
http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/Air ... per-J3-Cub
http://www.flugzeuginfo.net/acdata_php/ ... cub_en.php

Piper PA-18
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_PA-18
http://www.supercubproject.com/download ... Manual.pdf <-- 58 pages
http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/Air ... -Super-Cub
http://www.risingup.com/planespecs/info ... e457.shtml

[spec111]

I need WHOLE IJN in US designation system. [:D]

[Rparr28922]

We need to add some German Airplanes and Ships

[.Sirius]

Hi Sorry no can do at the moment I am assuming WW2 units. I only added IJN and some USN units so the Final Countdown scenario could be played. In the future other WW2 units maybe added but not just yet

ORIGINAL: Rparr28922

We need to add some German Airplanes and Ships

[.Sirius]

I understand you want the USN WW2 Designation System fot the IJN sorry no can do please see previous post on WW2 Units

Paul

ORIGINAL: spec111

I need WHOLE IJN in US designation system. [:D]

[Broncepulido]

Researching about old ASW systems near 1962:

About the Be-6 Madge, most of the data get here, after a painful, long and sometimes funny work with automatic translator (the acronyms in Russian are most of times "translated" in absurd in other terms, in other not-related acronyms or in impossible full texts phrases, "noncircular" should be omnidirectional, "machine" on this context is clearly "aircraft", and not "car", and a lot more):
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/sea/be6.html

Maximum height 6100 meters/médium.
Máximum speed sea level = 203 knots.
Máximum speed médium height = 224.
Cruise speed sea level = 135.
Cruise speed médium height = 140.
Máximum range, unloaded = 2700 nm.

But the website is a very good site, full of details and with interesting historical and technical descriptions. Worth of visit for all with Russian planes interests.

Only 123 Be-6 build. In service 1953. First only employed for sea search and reconnaissance, later adapted and modified for ASW and employed 1954-1969 ASW variant named in full Be-6PLO. ASW variant converted and in service in Black and Baltic Seas in 1954, in Northern Fleet in 1955, in Pacific Fleet in 1956-1957 (in Pacific Fleet many planes converted first only with MAD, Baku systems and sonobuoys added later).

Radar is PSBN-M (sometimes called Look Two, also employed by Il-28, Yak-26, Tu-14. Surface search, some 27 nm range, PD=30?), in a retractable dustbin underfuselage. MAD first located in the wing leading edge, later relocated on tail, deleting two of the five 23mm defensive guns.

The usual weapons descriptions about bombs are correct, but the torpedos employed were apparently only high altitude dropping unguided antiship torpedoes, 2xBT-45-54 (or sometimes traslated as 45-54VT), not ASW torpedoes, and less the AT-1 (1962) (too weak to be launched from planes, only launched from helicopters) or the SET-40/MGT-2 (1962), only employed from surface ships. More data about the torpedoes here or elsewhere, no contradictions detected about this issue: http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WTRussian_post-WWII.htm

But the more trascendent detail is Be-6PLO was not only equipped with MAD, also has from 1954 the Baku system for sonobuoys (same Bakú system also employed at least by Mi-4M/ME ASW variants), with only 18 channels, and with original capacity only for carry underwing 16 RGBN or RGBN-M passive omnidirectional sonobuoys with some 0,4-0,5 nm range on Harpoon HCE/HUCE (2 meters long, 45 Kg weight, 4 in each of the 4 hardpoints).
The Be-6PLO has not bomb bay, but later another 27 sonobuoys of the same type were carried into the fuselage and discharged though hatches.

About the ASW weapons employed, from the 16xMPLAB-100 load underwing (apparently designed 1940 and introduced 1944, weight 100 Kg) was developed the PLAB-MK (1955?) of 7,54 kg overall weight, and 0,74 kg high explosive.
A Be-6 can load underwing 2, 4 or 6 PLAB-MK pods with 57xPLAB-MK each container pod, weighing each pod 490 Kg.
2/4/6x57 PLAB-MK containers, 490 Kg each.
Usual loadouts are 16 x MPLAB-100 underwing+27xsonobuoys in the fuselage, or 4x57x PLAB-MK+27 sonobuoys in the fuselage (6x57x PLAB-MK is at practical effects an overload), or more usually 2x57x PLAB-MK underwing+6/12xSonobuoys underwing+27xSonobuoys into the fuselage.

About Russian airborne depth charges:
http://uvao.ru/uvao/ru/pages/print/o_101716
http://bazalt.ru/ru/o_predpriyatii/istoriya/ MPLAB-100 in service date 1944.
http://www.airwar.ru/other/kr/kr2002_05 ... rt_04.html

More details about his sucessor Be-12 here: http://www.be-12.info/eng/history/

Curiously in Command CMANO the Be-6 is depicted with loadouts very similar to IL-38, with some 216+ sonobuouys of more modern types, as BM-1, BM-2, BM-3.