Japanese R&D with PDU OFF

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Q-Ball
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Japanese R&D with PDU OFF

Post by Q-Ball »

I am looking forward to a PDU-OFF game, feels more like what the war is supposed to be, but I am having trouble re-wrapping my head around Japanese production. I even wonder if I have to produce a few more Nates, that's how confused I am!

Has anyone PDU OFF figured out a basic Japanese production plan? Please share!

Certainly, the Oscar line is way more important, and mass deployment of Tojo, George, Jack seems to be off the table. Tony is back in play. Frank still looks very important. Looks like we're stuck making Sonias and Lilly. That type of thing....

Some guidance will help though, thanks!
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geofflambert
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RE: Japanese R&D with PDU OFF

Post by geofflambert »

No more Nates. You already have too many. You'll never run out of them once you're using them for trainers only.

What do you mean by "off the table"? You will produce those, as many as you can.

You need to keep making a few single engine bombers because some squadrons will cost you an arm and a leg to convert to 2 engine bombers. Those squadrons should be used for training only. Use up those otherwise useless engines.

Lilly makes for an excellent sub hunter at choke points and protecting harbor approaches, but eventually I want everything to go to Helens.

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geofflambert
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RE: Japanese R&D with PDU OFF

Post by geofflambert »

Forget all that, I forgot what PDU off meant. I've never studied that. Why are you looking forward to it? [&:]

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Q-Ball
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RE: Japanese R&D with PDU OFF

Post by Q-Ball »

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Forget all that, I forgot what PDU off meant. I've never studied that. Why are you looking forward to it? [&:]

Why? A change maybe? Air war devolves into hordes of Tojos, then Franks, otherwise. I think having to use more airframe types is a challenge. Tojo, George are in play, but only a handful of units can upgrade to them. It feels more like the real air war, and the fact that you have to keep several in production mirrors real-life, where military procurement decisions do not always make sense.

I think there are probably still enough Nates, but several units do not upgrade until later Oscar types, so the Nate has to stay in service longer than a PDU-ON game for sure

We'll see how it goes

Still looking for help, though......
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IdahoNYer
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RE: Japanese R&D with PDU OFF

Post by IdahoNYer »


See Greyjoys vs Obverts AAR - he goes through just what your asking
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GreyJoy
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RE: Japanese R&D with PDU OFF

Post by GreyJoy »

Hi Brad,

Yes, it's tough! But very interesting and challenging! I won't go back playing with PDU on!

I think you first need to decide what kind of strategic target are you aiming at(concerning air war): mid war or late war. Don't think u can have both, given the limited supplies we have in out scenarios.
Oscar and Zero lines are the two most important ones imho.
J2M line is pretty worthless to RnD cause none of the existing sentais will upgrade to them.
What is important to realize is that you need to RnD at most the sentais that are on the map by mid 1942. Those that will arrive later dont really matter (no point in reasearch planes that cannot be fielded because the only sentais that can have them arent yet arrived).

Frank is important, yes, but many many sentais that get it, before being able to upgrade to the frank, pass through other mid war models (that u need to have if u want to get to the frank). For example: the KI45c. A useless plane in a RnD ON environement. Vital in PDU off, cause many sentais that get to the frank pass through this model.

More or less a good RnD program could be (imho):

8x30 Oscar line
10x30 zero line ( watch out for the sen baku trap...and the A2M7 one)
10x30 ki84 line (both a and b versions)
3x30 Nick line
4x30 ki44 line (only 3 sentais and half get the KI-44a, so watch out)
2x30 J2M line
4x30 George line
4x30 ki-94 line (or ki83, depends on preferencies i guess)
3x30 judy
3x30 jill
2x30 KI-51b
6x30 ki-61 line


Should be enough to have a decent program with pdu on... The other factories must be used to fill the production needs as soon as a new plane becomes available

In my AAR u can find some more details... And also in Mr.kane's one afaik

Hope it helps

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Puhis
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RE: Japanese R&D with PDU OFF

Post by Puhis »

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I am looking forward to a PDU-OFF game, feels more like what the war is supposed to be, but I am having trouble re-wrapping my head around Japanese production. I even wonder if I have to produce a few more Nates, that's how confused I am!

Has anyone PDU OFF figured out a basic Japanese production plan? Please share!

Certainly, the Oscar line is way more important, and mass deployment of Tojo, George, Jack seems to be off the table. Tony is back in play. Frank still looks very important. Looks like we're stuck making Sonias and Lilly. That type of thing....

Some guidance will help though, thanks!

I'm playing only PDU off. I've never produce any Nates. I use them only for training. I produce low number of Sonias, but also for training. Lily's are useful planes, especially dive bomber models, but I don't use any R6D factories for them.

Like you said, Oscar is very important until you start getting Franks. You should also R&D Tojos and Tonys. There are limited number of units that can use them (especially in 1943), but those units are the most important ones. Because it's not possible to use only the best models, you need to think pros and cons of the planes. For example Tonys are good for base defense, but they need good air support (and railroad). Also when defending, mixing different fighter models might be good idea.

Also rotating units is important. Units with old plane models go to training, and former training units that get new models go to front line etc. For example when Oscar IIb arrives, Oscar Ic goes to training.

Jack is rather useless plane, I think there's only 2 or 3 units that use it. George is still important, but don't use too many R&D for George. I think I got the plane when there was only one unit capable using it. It was somewhat waste of resources. Same with Helen, too few units to use any R&D.

Overall there's less freedom for using R&D, but still most of the plane models are useless and you can concentrate most important ones. I think biggest difference is Army fighters. You can't neglect Tonys and Oscars. Also it's more important to produce different versions at the same time, for example some units use Tojo IIa and some units use Tojo IIb.

To me, playing PDU off is the only way to play the game. It feels right, and I think people exaggerate disadvanteges for Japan. Player must be more cunning how to the planes. [;)]
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RE: Japanese R&D with PDU OFF

Post by Q-Ball »

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy



More or less a good RnD program could be (imho):

8x30 Oscar line
10x30 zero line ( watch out for the sen baku trap...and the A2M7 one)
10x30 ki84 line (both a and b versions)
3x30 Nick line
4x30 ki44 line (only 3 sentais and half get the KI-44a, so watch out)
2x30 J2M line
4x30 George line
4x30 ki-94 line (or ki83, depends on preferencies i guess)
3x30 judy
3x30 jill
2x30 KI-51b
6x30 ki-61 line

Thanks Nik! If I read that right, that's 59 out of the available 72 R&D Lines.

--What is the "sen baku" trap? Is that a bad upgrade path?
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GreyJoy
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RE: Japanese R&D with PDU OFF

Post by GreyJoy »

Yes, sorry Brad, i have been too generic!

So, the Zero line is a pretty easy one and very important at the same time. There are, however, a couple of hidden "traps" in it.
Let's say that the goal is to get to the end of the line (A6M8) ASAP, so to be able to upgrade all those navy sentais (CV ones included) to what will be their best possible plane.
The first thing to consider is that the A6M2 upgrades to the A6M2 Sen Baku and NOT to the A6M3 (or 3a).
So, in order to keep on researching and producing along the line that gets to the A6M5 (the first really important step), you need to RnD first the A6M3 (which goes to the A6M3a and then the A6M5).
At the same time, it's important to RnD the A6M2 Sen Baku, cause there are some important sentais (45 planes each) that go directly from the A6M2 to the A6M2 Sen Baku before getting back to the "normal" upgrade path of the A6M line (meaning A6M5b->c->A6m8).
My suggestion is the following:

Create 4x30 A6M2 production factories, and keep them producing untill you reach a reasonable level of A6M2s in the pools. Then switch 3 of them to RnD the A6M2 Sen Baku, while laeaving 1x30 into production (you will always need some A6M2s throughout the whole war).
At the same time start RnD the A6M3 with 4x30 factories and the A6MRufe with 3x30.
When the A6M3 becomes available, keep those 3x30 factories into production for some time (so to fulfill the needs of those sentais that need the A6M3) and then switch 3x30 to RnD the A6M3a, while leaving 1x30 into production(later on, when the A6M5 arrives, you should be able to get rid of that 1x30 A6M3 factory left prducing, but for the moment it's better to keep it).
As soon as the Rufe becomes available, leave 1x30 producing it, and switch 2x30 factories to the A6M5.
You should soon be able to re-unite those factories into RnDing the A6M5 and from there everything becomes easier cause the "line" gets back on a single "track".
When the A6M2 Sen Baku finally becomes available, produce 50 of them(but be carefull not to use them!) and then move on RnDing the A6M5b

Remember that ALL the models must be produced to a certain extent, cause you need to have them in pool in order to upgrade and can't bypass a model during the upgrade process.

You'll also find a problem with the A6M7. It's a FB and it has a unique upgrade path. A useless plane, but some later arriving sentais, before being able to get to the A6M8 and the A7M2 needs to pass through this damned model.
I have decided not to invest on it in RnD, so those sentais "affected" by that upgrade path, will be left flying A6M2 for some time (untill the A6M7 normally arrives). It's a matter of choices i think. I do believe you can't have everything and the risk of wasting too many supplies in the RnD program (costantly moving on different production paths) is very high.

This RnD program could be changed, obviously, giving the zero line even more industries. I think it's easy to get to the A6M5 by August/september 1942 and to the A6M8 by September 1943 if you invest a little bit more.

I know you know, but it never hurts.... remember the engine bonus! The Ha-35 will be the most important engine, so i suggest (strongly) you devote at least 4 industries into producing it, constantly expanding them.
My goal is to be able to produce more than 1000 Ha-35/monthly by the end of Semptember 1942
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RE: Japanese R&D with PDU OFF

Post by GreyJoy »

To be clearer:

12th Ku S-1
13th Ku S-1
Chitose Ku S-1

These 3 sentais are the existing ones that needs to be upgraded from the A6M2 to the A6m2 Sen Baku before being able to get back on track to the A6M line (A6m5 to be precise).

These are very important cause the Navy Sentais are much more needed in a PDU OFF invironement, having most of the Army Sentai stuck with Oscars till mid 1943 at least.

So, unless you want to fly these 3 sentais with A6M2s till mid 1944, you need to RnD the Sen Baku and get it asap.

In late 1943 there will also be 2 more sentais that will have this very same problem...




Also remember to devote a single factory to the second version of the Val. I won't build more than 45 of this crap, but you'll need them at least to be able to upgrade the carrier DB groups to the D4Y line...

What else?...mmm... well, it depends on your targets. The SAM is cool to have, obviously, but there are two different upgrade paths for the two different versions of it. Too late and too expensive in terms of supplies to get on both of them IMHO. Choose one of the two and accept the idea of having the LBA IJN sentais or the CV IJN sentais stuck to the zero line...

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RE: Japanese R&D with PDU OFF

Post by GreyJoy »

Also remember that there are NO FP Norm groups available...so don't produce or RnD it.

I will also probably produce the KI-119...but not so sure how much i'll want to RnD it... still undecided.

Could be also a good idea to have at least 2x30 factories devoted to the KI-102b...

The Helen is not an important plane. Don't overdo with it.

The Frances is also a more or less useless plane. Don't RnD it. Just be ready to have a small factory producing it once it arrives into production.

I had kept producing Nates in order to empty the engines stockpile. Also I had used them until august 1942 (mainly in China)...If the AVG starts shooting them down you may need to produce some of them (I think I've produced 200 of them before moving to another production line).

I also keep on producing KI-15 Babs... badly needed for recon cause many Sentais of Babs are stuck with the KI-51 as the next and only upgrade... better to have them flying as Babs rather than as Sonias, imhho.



Hope this helps
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geofflambert
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RE: Japanese R&D with PDU OFF

Post by geofflambert »

I agree on the Babs especially because I want the Army to carry as much of the medium range naval search load as possible so that I can use my Bettys and Nells for torpedo training. On the Kotobuki engines, I prefer to use them for Daves, especially if I've expanded the FP squadrons to do training. Also I've found if you use Jakes on ships you'll lose a lot of them to CAP unless you restrict their ranges when near land bases.

Question, with PDU on, are you allowed to downgrade to an earlier model or are you stuck?

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Puhis
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RE: Japanese R&D with PDU OFF

Post by Puhis »

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Remember that ALL the models must be produced to a certain extent, cause you need to have them in pool in order to upgrade and can't bypass a model during the upgrade process.


I don't think this is entirely true. You cannot manually bypass models, true. However, if you let the game engine do the upgrade, I've seen it skip models.
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Q-Ball
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RE: Japanese R&D with PDU OFF

Post by Q-Ball »

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
Question, with PDU on, are you allowed to downgrade to an earlier model or are you stuck?

You are stuck. That's another interesting wrinkle. It behooves you to use-up airframes before upgrading. You also can't go back into old Oscar stocks, say, for Kamikazes. I imagine feeding Kamikazes will get especially challenging for this reason.
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RE: Japanese R&D with PDU OFF

Post by cohimbra »

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Question, with PDU on, are you allowed to downgrade to an earlier model or are you stuck?
With PDU=ON you are able to do what you want.
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RE: Japanese R&D with PDU OFF

Post by Q-Ball »

ORIGINAL: cohimbra

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Question, with PDU on, are you allowed to downgrade to an earlier model or are you stuck?
With PDU=ON you are able to do what you want.


Sorry, that is correct, PDU ON enables DOWNGRADES. I though he was asking about PDU-OFF, which does NOT.
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RE: Japanese R&D with PDU OFF

Post by cohimbra »

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: cohimbra

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Question, with PDU on, are you allowed to downgrade to an earlier model or are you stuck?
With PDU=ON you are able to do what you want.


Sorry, that is correct, PDU ON enables DOWNGRADES. I though he was asking about PDU-OFF, which does NOT.
That's it. If you play only one time with PDU=OFF, you never came back. I love PDU=OFF...PDU=OFF rules. [:D]
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Kull
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RE: Japanese R&D with PDU OFF

Post by Kull »

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I am looking forward to a PDU-OFF game, feels more like what the war is supposed to be, but I am having trouble re-wrapping my head around Japanese production. I even wonder if I have to produce a few more Nates, that's how confused I am!

Has anyone PDU OFF figured out a basic Japanese production plan? Please share!

There's at least three things to consider, and I can help you with two of them:

1) What are the units that have to be supported and what are the PDU-off upgrade paths? Assuming you are playing Scenario #1, the "AE-Japan Setup" spreadsheet (linked in my sig) allows you to filter quickly on all units you start the game with ("Japan Set-up" tab, filter column E by "Air Group"), as well as those which are due to arrive later ("Air Group Delays-Jap" tab). And, it shows the next model in the PDU-off upgrade chain - if there even is one...many don't upgrade (see column Y of the first tab and column U of the second tab). This is still raw data, but it will definitely tell you pretty quickly (filter by models) which air unit will need to be supported.

2) How many engines and airframes will I need to support these? The "Japan Air-Engine Plan" is just what you need to plan the airframe and engine factory outputs needed - by month and by year. Once you have a rough idea of how many units of each type are available (and when), this will ensure you have the production to support them.

3) What roles will this multiplicity of models support? And there I can't help you. Fortunately you've been playing for a while, so none of these things are really new to you. It can be challenging, though!

Note: Although the first spreadsheet is intended for setting up an entire campaign, for this purpose ignore all that and just focus on the air units. You'll be amazed how helpful the filter buttons can be in terms of telling you just how ugly it's going to look down the road.

Good luck! Huge fan of PDU-off, myself.
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RE: Japanese R&D with PDU OFF

Post by Numdydar »

I'm actually in a game as Japan with PDU Off. It is about April '44 and I will tell you I will never play a game with PDU Off as Japan again [:(]. I'm glad I did it once though.

The game already has so much detail that I would much rather concentrate on a lot of the other aspects of the game versus having to track down squadrons on the map that I can upgrade. And there are a lot that never will.

If that is not enough, Japanese production is a lot harder too. Almost every plane type needs to be produced along with every engine type. And since plane/engine production is an important part of Japan's ability to survive. PDU Off makes it harder to plan out R & D too. At least it did for me after coming from a PDU On game [:)]

I know PDU Off is more historical, etc. But I see no reason to play a game that takes as long as this one (if you go to the end anyway) historically since we all know how that turned out [:D]

But your mileage may vary [:)] For me PDU On now and forever [:D]
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RE: Japanese R&D with PDU OFF

Post by DanSez »

To start off, apology to Q-Ball as I do not intend to hi-jack your thread asking for help in your game.
ORIGINAL: Numdydar

I'm actually in a game as Japan with PDU Off. It is about April '44 and I will tell you I will never play a game with PDU Off as Japan again [:(]. I'm glad I did it once though.

The game already has so much detail that I would much rather concentrate on a lot of the other aspects of the game versus having to track down squadrons on the map that I can upgrade. And there are a lot that never will.

If that is not enough, Japanese production is a lot harder too. Almost every plane type needs to be produced along with every engine type. And since plane/engine production is an important part of Japan's ability to survive. PDU Off makes it harder to plan out R & D too. At least it did for me after coming from a PDU On game [:)]

I know PDU Off is more historical, etc. But I see no reason to play a game that takes as long as this one (if you go to the end anyway) historically since we all know how that turned out [:D]

But your mileage may vary [:)] For me PDU On now and forever [:D]
Thank You.

I am glad someone spoke up on this issue from the other side.
Being a relative noob myself (just playing short campaigns vs pbem opponents) - getting your head around tackling the Grand Campaign is hard enough.

For some of the more experienced players who have "been down that road before" I am sure there is a different perspective.

I disagree with the "more historical" for PDU OFF argument as it is focused on only one end of the equation - force structure and not on the underlying "ahistorical" problem of force projection.
ok... I've reworded this 6 times now.

Maybe this needs its own thread --- has the virtues of PDU ON/OFF been hashed out before?

Q-Ball, sorry for the interruption. Good luck with your game.



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