Is it possible to destroy my CSG?

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alexmeijer
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Is it possible to destroy my CSG?

Post by alexmeijer »

I'll probably sound like a noob (I actually am a noob in this game and warfare...) but is it Possible to destroy my Gerald R. Ford Carrier Strike Group?

I have tried it myself but failed everytime:
Submarine: Got shot before it could fire... OR the torpedo/missile got intercepted.
Ships: All of them were destroyed of the map before they could fire...
Aircraft: Tried to fly a 14 F-35s + 5 Growlers with jammers but they where destroyed of the map. Only 2 missiles got thru...

Since I'm a noob and can't handle it myself, can some of you guys do it?[&o]
I added the scenario to this post. I don't know if the formation of the strike group is realistic, but at least it does it's job right? haha.
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Gunner98
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RE: Is it possible to destroy my CSG?

Post by Gunner98 »

Alex

I once read an article (a long time ago) that was titled something like - The hardest thing in the World to get into - a US CVBG! That was in the cold war days but I think it still applies to a modern CSG.

Looking at your scenario and you are quite heavy. You have the CV, 2x Tyco's, 4x Burks, 2x OHPs, 3 SSNs, 2 AOEs and about 183 AC

This is a Wiki link but worth a look. The typical CSG is the CV, 1-2 Tyco's, 2-3 Burks, 0-2 SSNs, 1 AOE(R) and the CVW which I'll talk about in the next post.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_strike_group (6-7 ships optimum) + SSN(s)

It is not uncommon to have a CSG with only 4 ships - CV, 1 Tyco, 2 Burks

Cold War CVBGs were larger - CV, 2-3x CG/CGN, 3-4x DDG/DD/FFG, 1x AOR (9 ships optimum) + 2-3 SSN

The OHPs are all or mostly retired by now. The SSNs are usually deployed separately but in support, it's really hard to say since we are not privy to how the subs operate but if you tie them to the CSG formation you are limiting their usefulness. I like to put them out 1-200 Nm in front of the CSG if there is room or on a threatened access of approach.

Some thoughts on building a formation are here: tm.asp?m=3636652&mpage=1&key=CVBG

As for destroying one - well it still isn't nor should it be easy. It would take a Cold War (or newer version of same) force array that can swamp the defences with a combined attack from several SSNs, probably an Oscar class SSGN, a SAG with a Kirov and all linked with an attack by a couple Regts (100+) long range bombers (Bears). Time it all so that your jammers, spoofers and decoys hit the outer defences just as your subs strike, then launch the Oscar, Kirov and 100+ AS-5/6 (with some ARMs to boot). I haven't actually done that yet, but its worth a try

B

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Gunner98
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RE: Is it possible to destroy my CSG?

Post by Gunner98 »

As far as your Air group.

There are several places to look but this is a good one to get some examples:
http://www.wings-aviation.ch/24-Naval-W ... sis-en.htm

I think the main issue here is 149x F-35C. I have not been following the issues on this but I think the plan for the USN is only for 480 of them - and with 10x CVW about that is a virtual max of 48/CVW. Since the F-35 is to replace the F-18's that raw number makes a certain amount of sense, 4x F-18s sqn per CVW and 12 AC each. However that does not account for training, refit, upgrades etc - I really don't know the answer on this one but the absolute max would be 48, and I think 36 would be more likely. Also a CVN can handle a max of 90 AC and most CVW's hover around 72-78 AC, with F-18s.

Hope this helps



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Dutchie999
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RE: Is it possible to destroy my CSG?

Post by Dutchie999 »

If the experts on youtube are to believed it only takes one DF-21D [:D]. On a more serious note I can only think of two ways:

1) start firing a massive amount of torpedo's blind towards the CSG from different angles (but for this you need to get up close with a few different submarines but long before that you will be spotted for sure).

2: exhaust the massive amount of missiles that the CSG carries with a massive barrage of your own missiles. But if I look at what I think a modern CSG would look like (1x CVN, 3x DDG, 1x CG) then you are talking about a hell of a lot of missiles: 42x RIM-116, 16x RIM-161, 112x RIM-162, 32x RIM-174, 48x RIM-66 and there are still the CIWS systems. Even without the CIWS and with a kill-ratio of 50% for the missiles you need to fire more then 125 missiles to get anywhere close to the carrier. Basically any advanced military will need almost all of its anti-ship missiles just to attack one CSG. Of which the US ofcourse has 9. And then are still the 11 ESG you need to destroy before the US loses its ability to launch aircraft from the sea.

Not worth the trouble if you ask me [:'(]

But maybe the Chinese have really found a way with the DF-21D to get through the defenses to the carrier. Maybe just sheer speed is the answer.
magi
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RE: Is it possible to destroy my CSG?

Post by magi »

If the experts on youtube are to believed it only takes one DF-21D . On a more serious note I can only think of two ways:

But maybe the Chinese have really found a way with the DF-21D to get through the defenses to the carrier. Maybe just sheer speed is the answer.

< Message edited by Dutchie999 -- 10/8/2014 3:33:27 PM >

(in reply to Gunner98)

The interesting thing about this weapon system… And its application and design as being used to defeat enemy naval action groups with land base ballistic missile systems… Is that they have provided their neighbors with the blueprint for defeating Chinese offensive naval action groups that seek to a invade them… The benefit of these land-based systems is that they are cheaper to prosecute this type of mission than other alternatives…
So now the Chinese may have a good sea denial ability… But in the future so will their neighbors… Here we have an nice example of military expenditure escalation.....
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AdmiralSteve
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RE: Is it possible to destroy my CSG?

Post by AdmiralSteve »


But maybe the Chinese have really found a way with the DF-21D to get through the defenses to the carrier. Maybe just sheer speed is the answer.
Don't forget that if the CSG was close enough to PLAN shores or an ECM aircraft, the DF-21 could have a better chance of getting through. But I like your idea of a multi-axis torpedo attack. Diesel electric I assume would be the best approach and it would have to be the perfect storm. The CSG would have to be very unsuspecting, the group would have to be fairly spread out and making turns for 20+ knots to not hear any approaching subs. Mining a narrow strait or an unconventional asymmetrical attack such as small boats with suicide bombers in the dark could work?
“There are no extraordinary men...just extraordinary circumstances that ordinary men are forced to deal with.”
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hellfish6
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RE: Is it possible to destroy my CSG?

Post by hellfish6 »

Has anyone made a mission with the DF-21 vs a CVBG?
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hellfish6
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RE: Is it possible to destroy my CSG?

Post by hellfish6 »

ORIGINAL: Gunner98

Since the F-35 is to replace the F-18's that raw number makes a certain amount of sense, 4x F-18s sqn per CVW and 12 AC each.

Yes and no - the idea is that the F-35C will replace the F/A-18A+ and F/A-18Cs, but not the Es and Fs (yet). Probably half and half - two squadrons of F-35Cs and two of F/A-18E/F. Maybe a Marine strike-fighter squadron too (IIRC they're getting some F-35Cs in addtion to the F-35Bs).
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Dutchie999
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RE: Is it possible to destroy my CSG?

Post by Dutchie999 »


Interesting paper about the DF-21D.

http://www.defenceiq.com/naval-and-mari ... us-navy-c/

Basically the conclusion for me after a basic 30 min research on the internet of the DF-21D is this:

1) It is questionable the kill chain will work as well as reported and/or advertised.
2) The SM-3 at least in theory has the ability to take it down.
3) If the US finds itself in a non nuclear war and needs to take it's CSG's close to Chinese shores then it can always resort to shooting down Chinese satellites from Ticonderoga cruisers to remove the classification capability from the kill chain.

I think most importantly that this is a useless weapon system. Because the only way to use it is to intentionally want to destroy a CSG and 7000+ americans. If you try to do that then you will be guaranteed in an all out war with the United States + NATO. So the DF-21D is basically like a nuclear weapon. Very intimidating, very scary and very powerful. But you can never use it.

(image to add dramatic effect to the discussion [:D])

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hellfish6
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RE: Is it possible to destroy my CSG?

Post by hellfish6 »

NATO obligations don't formally extend to the Pacific Ocean.
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Dutchie999
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RE: Is it possible to destroy my CSG?

Post by Dutchie999 »

ORIGINAL: hellfish6

NATO obligations don't formally extend to the Pacific Ocean.

Interesting. I didn't know that. Is there something like an extra clause in Article 5 for that?
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hellfish6
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RE: Is it possible to destroy my CSG?

Post by hellfish6 »

In Article 6 it outlines the basic geographic boundaries, which kept NATO from reacting to the Falklands, for example.

(from wiki)
[1]For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:

on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France [2], on the territory of or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.
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Feltan
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RE: Is it possible to destroy my CSG?

Post by Feltan »

ORIGINAL: Gunner98

I once read an article (a long time ago) that was titled something like - The hardest thing in the World to get into - a US CVBG!

Gunner,

Not sure about that. I dated some girls back in the day that would give a US CVBG a run for its money.

Regards,
Feltan
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Gunner98
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RE: Is it possible to destroy my CSG?

Post by Gunner98 »

ORIGINAL: Feltan

ORIGINAL: Gunner98

I once read an article (a long time ago) that was titled something like - The hardest thing in the World to get into - a US CVBG!

Gunner,

Not sure about that. I dated some girls back in the day that would give a US CVBG a run for its money.

Regards,
Feltan

[:D] Well - I guess that just like with a CVBG - you need to peel back a few layers of defence [:D]

B
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