Ukraine

The new Cold War turned hot wargame from On Target Simulations, now expanded with the Player's Edition! Choose the NATO or Soviet forces in one of many scenarios or two linked campaigns. No effort was spared to model modern warfare realistically, including armor, infantry, helicopters, air support, artillery, electronic warfare, chemical and nuclear weapons. An innovative new asynchronous turn order means that OODA loops and various effects on C3 are accurately modeled as never before.

Moderators: WildCatNL, cbelva, IronManBeta, CapnDarwin, IronMikeGolf, Mad Russian

Phoenix100
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RE: Ukraine

Post by Phoenix100 »

That is an extremely Western thing to say.
If that were true it would only make the contrary position (what Russia claims is the truth)...what? ...a very 'Eastern' thing to say. And so?

I think we can take sides on current affairs, especially affairs of some importance. I think we can happily and competently decide whether the pronouncements and denials that come out of Russia, with its particular political system (shall we call it a 'corrupt oligarchy'?)are to be taken as more or less truthful than those coming out of the US or NATO (without taking sides, myself, on which I would go for...after all, some people (in 'the West', mind you, where they are still free to do so...)say that the USA is a corrupt oligarchy...). There may be Russians who buy the game, and who support their political oligarchy, there may be others who don't. Also, to criticise the political oligarchy running the country and milking it is not to criticise 'Russia' (or the USA, if you think their system is corrupt). It doesn't mean you've said something offensive to those Russians who may or may not be in here. But I'm just making the point that where people are being killed and it's a very significant world event (especially for Europe) then I don't have a problem with people taking sides. I think you definitely should take sides.

For myself, I'm British and only too happy to read criticism of the british political system and british actions abroad. If people criticise the UK I don't assume they're criticising me, and I'm glad people have an opinion and express it freely. If they happen to be Chinese, say, then I wouldn't discount it by calling it 'Eastern', because I'm happy for political regimes of any sort to be criticised. the more the better.

But you're right that the devs - mindful of the Russian market - might wish to make sure they don't, for financial reasons. But the suggested scenario doesn't take sides, I think. No? Alternative history/what-if - different terms for the same thing - something that didn't happen. Didn't happen yet, in the case of Ukraine, and highly unlikely to, if we're talking about NATO v Russia.
Lots of what if questions and a modern European setting can generate some interesting and fairly even scenarios

Couldn't agree more. And I thnink it would be a plus point for most newcomers to the game, and those thinking of buying, that they could play a topical red-hot scenario - for both 'western' and 'eastern' newcomers and potential buyers. I think it would be good for the OTS coffers, for sure. And thus good for the game.
CaptCarnage
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RE: Ukraine

Post by CaptCarnage »

Well let's get back to the original posting here. It was about Red vs Red.

Before making any kind of official OTS Red vs Red scenario about Ukraine, perhaps you might want to determine first whether it is Red vs Red. Again: who is the foe?
That's why I said it's a Western thing to say Russia is, because about 150 million Russians will disagree. They are not involved. Whether that's mass propaganda making them think that, or not, they aren't involved. And they probably will argue we in the West are brainwashed. Follow the RussiaToday website for a while and you will know what I mean.

Up until now, Flashpoint doesn't take sides because they offer winnable campaigns and scenarios for every side. And they might offer a Ukraine package with 2 campaigns that will make it fun to play both sides i.e. they make it balanced, but lets face it: a quick search on military assets in both countries doesn't really tip the balance to Ukraine.
So to make fun scenarios, the scenario writer has to come up with some bullsh*t to defy reality. That's why I say Flashpoint is an alternative history thing, because the scenario writer made up a nice plausible story in which he fitted balanced battles.

Just a note about CMANO: it's a different thing. In CMANO I can pitch a group of fighters vs. a few warships and see who will win. I can simulate subs vs. warships and see which platforms perform better. Flashpoint isn't really that kind of a game, I think. It's more a tactical game where choosing killing grounds and vantage points make all the difference, and so it really needs balanced scenarios to make it fun. In CMANO there are a lot more options for units (speed, course, altitude, EMCON settings etc.). It's more about military platform vs military platform. Flashpoint is more about tactical planning and requires a balanced scenario. Because in a Red vs Red way of thinking, Ukraine would be completely overwhelmed and outnumbered so you can have the best tactical plan for your unit, but eventually Russian tanks will shoot everyone from those vantage points.
Again, to make it fun and winnable, Mad Russian has to make balanced scenarios and that would already throw realism out of the window.
The above assumes that Russia is involved, which they deny. So it would have to be seperatists vs Ukr army but what do we know about those Orbats? The question who shot the MH17 airliner still hasnt been answered because Russians and separatists just deny the separatists had that kind of equipment.

So that's why I'd say, don't do Ukraine (that is, if you put it like an official release or something). It's not gonna really realistic.

But well, Red vs Red, Blue vs Blue - would be very nice though! Why not make it scenarios that depict training battles?

For those who want NATO vs Russian scenarios... eeh, didn't the game already have those?? ;)
"One must always distrust the report of troop commanders: 'We have no fuel' [...] You see, if they become tired they suddenly lack fuel" - Heinz Guderian, Panzer Leader
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SwampYankee68
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RE: Ukraine

Post by SwampYankee68 »

ORIGINAL: Skyhigh

ORIGINAL: Swamp_Yankee

Russia hasn't "admitted" it but unless NATO and US Intelligence are fabricating information it is pretty clear Russian equipment AND forces are involved in the fighting...

That is an extremely Western thing to say. If Devs go along with this, they are picking sides, convicting Russians of doing things they themselves say they are not. That's picking a side and taking a political stance at the same time.

Flashpoint isn't really what-if, it's Alternative History. And it's balanced by design. Throwing NATO in the mix now to balance it would ridicule a reallife situation. It's really better just to focus on Historical what-ifs, not current-day events - because we simply dont have all the info.

Sky I don't agree with almost all of your statement, but this isn't the place for political debate so I'll let it drop.

"The only way I got to keep them Tigers busy is to let them shoot holes in me!"
Tazak
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RE: Ukraine

Post by Tazak »

I think it comes down to the wording used when naming each force, the two names that pop to mind "Ukrainian Loyalist" and "Ukrainian Separatists" are about the most neutral wording I can think of. IMO we're not talking about who's in the right and who's in the wrong, more that we see 2 well/similar equipped forces fighting over terrain and we're modelling the likely tactics used or what we would have done differently if we were the local commander.

I don't think history will condemn us if we get names for each force wrong, or that we mimicked incorrect tactics but hopefully judge us by the amount of enjoyment we had second guessing the actual commanders.
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CaptCarnage
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RE: Ukraine

Post by CaptCarnage »

ORIGINAL: Tazak

IMO we're not talking about who's in the right and who's in the wrong, more that we see 2 well/similar equipped forces fighting over terrain and we're modelling the likely tactics used or what we would have done differently if we were the local commander.

What's the point of naming that a Ukraine scenario?

Or let me ask it differently: I'd like to see a US vs US battle as well. And US vs UK. And West Germany vs West Germany. Which real life situations are we gonna use for that?

Or, the question maybe should be: why do we need a real life situation to get a battle between similarly equipped forces?
"One must always distrust the report of troop commanders: 'We have no fuel' [...] You see, if they become tired they suddenly lack fuel" - Heinz Guderian, Panzer Leader
Phoenix100
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RE: Ukraine

Post by Phoenix100 »

History will forget us, no matter what we do with the Ukraine campaign.... [;)]

As to right and wrong, that IS a difficult question, given the various mixes of nationalities and language speakers in the various different regions involved, given also the recent history of the region and the various ways parcels of land, such as Ukraine, or Crimea, have been named or 'owned' in the recent past. Plus the burden of history and a consciousness of it. Those issues make it difficult, I think, to categorically work out who is right and who is wrong. But as to who is telling a systematic schema of lies about the issues and events, I think that's very easy. [;)]

I would love to see a Ukraine Nato v Russia campaign. But is MR going to do one?
Tazak
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RE: Ukraine

Post by Tazak »

ORIGINAL: Skyhigh
why do we need a real life situation to get a battle between similarly equipped forces?

I hope we don't, my next "masterpeice" I'm working on is around two fictional countries, fighting each other on a smallish island that strangely appears identical to Sardinia, both have been buying NATO tanks etc and their force structure is very similar, the 2nd piece I was going to do was same situation but using Soviet kit

slight change of topic - anyone see a change in Military scenario briefings for exercises after the Berlin wall fell, at first we had to call the enemy "red force" rather than "WP or Soviet forces", a few years later we got told we had to call "red forces" as "gold forces" as it had been deemed that red forces could be associated with the red Russian flag.
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Phoenix100
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RE: Ukraine

Post by Phoenix100 »

why do we need a real life situation to get a battle between similarly equipped forces?
Immersion?

Why do we need a game at all? We could just imagine we're doing it, in our heads. It's an imaginative thing. Having a 'link' to reality helps with the immersion, perhaps?
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Mad Russian
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RE: Ukraine

Post by Mad Russian »

ORIGINAL: Skyhigh

Try now to make a Ukraine-scenario balanced. Red on red won't work because of balance - Russians are way more powerful. Wait? Russians?

There are Russian combat forces inside the Ukraine. Putin has publicly stated that he is considering making Eastern Ukraine a Soviet state.

Yes, Russian vs Ukrainians could be a fact at any moment.

They are not involved in this conflict. Who is the foe then? Separatists? No one knows what kind of equipment they have? Who is the foe in your scenario, Mad Russian?

Russia hasn't admitted that separatists are using their equipment so any scenario is picking sides because we all don't know what's going on. Historical scenarios are nice because we have Orbats and know the outcome. Alternative histories work nice because we have realistic Orbats and you can let your fantasy go nuts on scenarios - which is what makes Flashpoint work with balanced scenarios.

Not sure what news you are watching. What I see is Russia is up to it's eyeballs in the 'Ukrainian Civil War'.

Good Hunting.

MR
The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
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Mad Russian
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RE: Ukraine

Post by Mad Russian »

ORIGINAL: Skyhigh

ORIGINAL: Swamp_Yankee

Russia hasn't "admitted" it but unless NATO and US Intelligence are fabricating information it is pretty clear Russian equipment AND forces are involved in the fighting...

That is an extremely Western thing to say. If Devs go along with this, they are picking sides, convicting Russians of doing things they themselves say they are not. That's picking a side and taking a political stance at the same time.

Flashpoint isn't really what-if, it's Alternative History. And it's balanced by design. Throwing NATO in the mix now to balance it would ridicule a reallife situation. It's really better just to focus on Historical what-ifs, not current-day events - because we simply dont have all the info.

I for one have little confidence in any government that screams they are not involved in anything.

I'm not taking sides, what I'm doing is bring to this forum the fact that FPC could do scenarios/campaigns involving both Russia and Ukraine. I'm not sure why you are so adamant that Russia is blameless in all this. Or that NATO may not respond.

Personally, for me, I don't trust the Russians political adgenda. Just like they don't trust ours. Both with good reason.

Good Hunting.

MR
The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
Phoenix100
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RE: Ukraine

Post by Phoenix100 »

I agree, MR. I think in as much as you believe that there is anything to be had from a democratic, liberal system that is not based on arbitrary power (whether coming from monarchy, wealth, inherited power, cliques of entrenched oligarchies, whatever) then it is important to stand up and say so. Even if the system is flawed and has its very major issues (the best system out of a series of bad alternatives, even), it's still better than being run by a clique of self-serving, self-justifying oligarchs who are primarily serving their own interests (as with all oligarchies throughout history they do usually believe that their interests are coterminous with their country's). The whittling away of arbitrary power in systems of governance is largely a European/north american ('western') achievement that many died to bring about, the benefits of which it is very easy to forget when you have them. Russia has never had them. Throughout its long history Russia has been run by a variety of oligarchical systems. Such systems survived so long in Tsarist times because they rode on the back of a hugely impoverished, uneducated majority. That remains, relatively, the case, but it is changing and changes which educate, empower and enlighten that vast majority can only be a bad thing from the point of view of the ruling minority. That's what's happening in their response to Ukraine (that's their political agenda) and that's also what makes them vulnerable to an apparently silly set of targeted sanctions. Those sanctions might just work, if ramped up enough. I hope so, otherwise, as MR says, it's certainly possible that, however late on the scene (as is traditional in response to such threats) NATO will have to do something.

Let's have that scenario, MR!
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Mad Russian
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RE: Ukraine

Post by Mad Russian »

Another map of which I can read not one word of.

Good Hunting.

MR

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The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

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Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
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Alex1812
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RE: Ukraine

Post by Alex1812 »

ЛУГАНСК - Luhansk
ДОНЕЦК - Donetsk
ГОРЛОВКА - Horlivka
СЛАВЯНСК - Sloviansk
МАРИУПОЛЬ - Mariupol

ОМБР, ОМБр - Separate Mechanized Brigade
ОТБр - Separate Tank Brigade
ОАБр - Separate Air Mobile Brigade
ВДБр - Airborne Brigade
OВДБр - Separate Airborne Brigade
ТБ - Territorial Defense Battalion
БТГ - Battalion Tactical Group (mixed battalion)
Grenadier, Russian Corps
Napoleonic Wargame Club
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Mad Russian
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RE: Ukraine

Post by Mad Russian »

Thanks Alex.

Blue = Ukrainian
Red = Separatists

??

Good Hunting.

MR
The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
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Alex1812
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RE: Ukraine

Post by Alex1812 »

Blue = Ukrainian (West and Central)
Red = Rebels (East Ukrainian)
Grenadier, Russian Corps
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