Smoke not blocking sight anymore?

[Panta_slith]

Playing the Pied Piper scenario, German side, just covered my units with arty smoke, but the T-80 targeted them and destroyed several nevertheless. Now, AFAIK t-80s don't have thermals in FPG. Another collateral damage to v2.05? [&:]

[SwampYankee68]

Ha! Just happened to me, too! Had my Leopard 2's on the west side of the Wesser, dropped smoke between me & Ivan, thought I'd have a turn or two to whittle him down, and I got MAULED! PBEM++ turn, if that matters.

[CapnDarwin]

Guys, I will check it out tonight. As far as I know it was working ok. Check that you are in the one case not dropping smoke into a lower elevation with you and the enemy on a higher one. Smoke in the hex is partially obscuring and not a blocking situation.

[SwampYankee68]

Could be. Some of my smoke was in river hexes...

[CapnDarwin]

I need to find some good info on the height of an arty delivered smoke mission to see if we need to go elevation plus one with the blocking effect.

[SwampYankee68]

In retrospect dropping it on a river hex is not that bright. Question: If I drop it directly ON an enemy unit will it still have the same blocking effect ON them (assuming they do not have thermal sights?)

[CapnDarwin]

I'm pretty sure any "in hex" smoke is partially obscuring.

[IronMikeGolf]

Looks to me like it is working. Both tank and mech plts have shot several times at the MRC. The ones behind the smoke remain unspotted. Shooters and the target MRC at same elevation. LOS check for the MRC shows smoke blocking.

How many meters high is an elevation level? I am betting, depending on weather, smoke would block eyeballs and IR 3+ elevation levels. Still air and a thermal inversion layer can hold it in low ground, but that's not all that often.

A couple of platoons of tanks/BMPs with smoke generators running can hide a Regiment.

[Panta_slith]

ORIGINAL: Iron Mike Golf

A couple of platoons of tanks/BMPs with smoke generators running can hide a Regiment.

But that's for WP units and NATO tanks all have thermals anyway. M1s didn't (don't) have smoke generators, AFAIK, so they have to relay on arty.

[Panta_slith]

Removed by author.

[hazmaxed]

M1s and M1A1s do have smoke generators. The driver flips a switch and diesel fuel is spray-injected directly into the engine exhaust and, viola, instant smoke cloud blowing from the rear of the vehicle. The problem is that this can only be done with diesel fuel. The US Army began using JP8, a lower octane jet fuel, as a replacement for diesel fuel during the 1st Gulf War. This makes the smoke generator unusable.

[Panta_slith]

That means that in the pre-Gulf War period M1 had functioning smoke generators? (not that it matters for FPG anyway, I presume that vehicle-generated smoke is abstract.

ORIGINAL: hazmaxed

M1s and M1A1s do have smoke generators. The driver flips a switch and diesel fuel is spray-injected directly into the engine exhaust and, viola, instant smoke cloud blowing from the rear of the vehicle. The problem is that this can only be done with diesel fuel. The US Army began using JP8, a lower octane jet fuel, as a replacement for diesel fuel during the 1st Gulf War. This makes the smoke generator unusable.

[CapnDarwin]

Units with smoke dischargers are in the combat model. I would say add a thread in the Requests sub-form for dedicated smoke generators/smoke pots/screen vehicles and we can see where we can work those mechanics in down the road. Those features would be more significant from WW2 to the mid/late 70s.

[IronMikeGolf]

ORIGINAL: Panta
That means that in the pre-Gulf War period M1 had functioning smoke generators? (not that it matters for FPG anyway, I presume that vehicle-generated smoke is abstract.

The M1 series and the M2/M3 series all have onboard smoke generators. These are called VEESS (Vehicle Engine Exhaust Smoke Systems). In the Abrams, it is part of the transmission fluid cooler. In the Bradley, it is part of the exhaust system.

The M1 was fielded, there was a problem in the winter with standard NATO diesel fuel (F54) in turbine engines. The paraffin congeals at low temperatures. The solution at the time was to mix F54 with either JP5 or JP8 (both basically kerosene) in a 50/50 mix. This was later standardized to NATO F65.

In 1986, the US Army went to the Single Fuel Concept, using JP8.

During Desert Shield/Desert Storm, some Army units requested diesel for their AFVs in lieu of JP8. I don't think anybody got diesel instead of JP8.

Research appears to be ongoing to get VEESS to work with JP8. I saw a paper dated 2010 on this topic.

For game purposes, I'd call 1985 and earlier as the time period for M1, M2, and M3 vehicles to have an operable smoke generator.

[IronMikeGolf]

ORIGINAL: Swamp_Yankee

In retrospect dropping it on a river hex is not that bright. Question: If I drop it directly ON an enemy unit will it still have the same blocking effect ON them (assuming they do not have thermal sights?)

I have dropped it on US units and had direct fire against them cease and indirect become much degraded.

[hazmaxed]

ORIGINAL: Iron Mike Golf

In 1986, the US Army went to the Single Fuel Concept, using JP8.

I wasn't aware that this change happened this early, or that the fuel we were getting was a mix of diesel and JP5/8. I always thought it was diesel only. I was in the 3rd Armored Division (based in Germany) from 1986 to 1989, and we were still getting the diesel mix up until the time I was reassigned to 1st CD at FT Hood, TX. 1st CD was using the diesel mix as well. Maybe there were large stocks that needed to be used up before JP8 became available. We were told to not use our VEESS when we started getting JP8 in Saudi Arabia in October 1990.

[IronMikeGolf]

Let me revise that timeline a bit:

1986 - US Army approves use of JP8 as a single fuel in lieu of diesel or diesel blend
1988 - DOD directive specifies JP8 as primary fuel
1989 - JP5 used as single fuel during Operation Just Cause (Panama)
1990 - Jet A1 (JP8 without three additives: corrosion inhibitor/lubricity enhancer, fuel system icing inhibitor, and static dissipater) used in Desert Shield/Desert Storm

I arrived in USAEUR May 90 and we were no longer using diesel at that point. It was "said" t be JP8, but I don't know it was not actually a blend or Jet A1.

Maybe for game purposes, 1990 would be a better cutoff date for US VEESS.

[CapnDarwin]

Jeff, great info. Thanks for posting.