Return of the Sheep! - JocMeister(A) vs. MrKane(J)

Post descriptions of your brilliant victories and unfortunate defeats here.

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JocMeister
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by JocMeister »

[font="Verdana"]1st July -42[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

So a new month. Air wise nothing too exciting. The B17E is replaced by the B24D which gives me a bit of better range.

------------------------
China
------------------------

Chungking is turning out to be a nice little VP generator for Tom. [:(]

Ground combat at Chungking (76,45)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 9018 troops, 754 guns, 758 vehicles, Assault Value = 1425

Defending force 95690 troops, 155 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 2451

Allied ground losses:
685 casualties reported
Squads: 17 destroyed, 37 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled

In the East the IG ID blast its way towards Paoshan. No problem pushing aside a 450 AV Corp dug in with level 3 forts in x3 terrain. Have no hope of holding on to Paoshan as supply is 0.

------------------------
Burma
------------------------

I´m moving engineers forward and start building up the airfields close to the border. This will take a while though as engineers are very short in the theater.

Tom has done some sweeps but I´m not meeting them right now.

------------------------
SOPAC
------------------------

Tom has stopped bombarding Nadi and looks to be moving towards Brisbane. Guess he still wants Brisbane... Still no sign of KB. Could he have started moving them towards the HI and the 7/42 refits?


------------------------
Air War and PDU OFF.
------------------------

Still to early to try and make any kind of assessment. But so far its been a PITA for me. This has especially hurt the training program. You have to be REALLY careful on what you upgrade. Once you do you cannot "undo" it. So if you later find yourself wanting those P39s you upgraded to? Nope.

Want to use those lovely P38s? Nope. Only 1 unrestricted squadron can use the "E" model and 1 the "F" model.

Want to use all those nice USMC DB squadrons that arrive? Ah, they upgrade directly to the SBD-3 version. Same as your CVs...this while you have 58 SBD-2s in the pool. But the SBD-2 can only be used by some of your CV squadrons. Did you upgrade those to "3s"? Aaaw too bad! Now you wasted 50 DBs...

I can´t tell you how much of a headache this is. I made so many mistakes and I will continue to do them. I´m very, very, VERY careful when upgrading stuff. Its fun though. [:)]

A good example of why this is much better for the game: My P39s have done some heavy fighting in OZ lately and I want to spread the load on the pools a bit more on the P40. I now actually have to ship the planes and squadrons there. No magic move!

I want to use the P38E. Yep...you guessed it. I have to SHIP the ONLY unrestricted squadron that can use it to wherever I want it. That squadron is actually a very good example of the dangers with PDU OFF and upgrading. Its the 51st/25th FS that actually starts with 4 P38s. At the time I moved them to India I didn´t have nowhere enough "Es" to fill the squadron out. So I almost upgraded them to the P40Es which is their next upgrade. Good thing I didn´t or I would never have been able to use the P38E at all...

I know most people believe PDU OFF is an instant win button for the allies. After playing for 8 months I still don´t agree with that. That opinion might change the further we get though. But as I look through tracker right now I can see for example I will by flying P39s, Mowhawks and Lancers well into 43. Some of 13th USAAF (SOPAC) P39s don´t upgrade until the P38J comes online in 12/43! I have at least one P39 Squadron that doesn´t upgrade until the P47-25 (44/3).

So it does go both ways. But the big difference is that PDU ON together with the ability to control the industry make Japan an immense powerhouse. This is taken away to an extent by PDU OFF. The Japanese side still gets almost unlimited numbers but can no longer focus and drive ahead a few extraordinary models like the Tojo, Frank and George and rely solely on those.

Another HUGE benefit of PDU OFF is that is will slow down the pace of the air war considerably. At some point in the game a limitation was added on how many AC can be drawn as replacements. I think its 12 per week? This is easily bypassed by simply downgrading and then upgrading the model (can be done instantly in PDU ON). This means that a FS could be annihilated to the last plane only to be fully recover 4-6 days later. Now it would take around 10-12 days instead.

Your 36 plane CV DB squadron got shot to pieces? See you in 25 days or so instead of 5.

The teleporting planes are also gone. I remembered when my first batch of 75 P47 arrived in my game with Erik. I simply downgraded them to P39s and 2 days later I had 75 P47s in Burma. This can no longer be done. The planes have to be moved there physically.

As I said I may very well change opinion about PDU OFF as the game progress but right now the only feel I´m getting is that "this is how its supposed to be" feeling. Things are making sense all of the sudden. And at least so far the air war is looking exactly as it does with PDU ON. Tom is kicking my butt in the air war during this critical Japanese expansion phase.

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JocMeister
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by JocMeister »

[font="Verdana"]Burma[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

Here is a screen of Burma. No incursions over the border from either side. Some scattered sweeps from Tom. I´m not meeting them right now. This will change in couple of weeks. I´m still relying solely on the RAF and the AVG here.

Problem is that AVG will withdraw in 4 days and I don´t have anything to fill the hole with right now. USAAF is on their way though. 125 P40s are unloading at Karachi but I need to give the pilots more time to train.

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JocMeister
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by JocMeister »

[font="Verdana"]Fiji/Samoans[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

Tom hasn´t done any bombardments in a while. It now looks like he is pulling out this massive TF towards Noumea.
Night Naval bombardment of Nadi at 131,160

Japanese Ships
BB Hyuga
BB Ise
BB Yamashiro
BB Fuso
BB Mutsu
BB Nagato

DD Yanagi
DD Karii
DD Yomogi
DD Tsuta
DD Susuki
DD Kiku
DD Hishu
DD Tsuga
DD Numakaze
DD Namikaze
DD Nokaze
DD Tachikaze
DD Hokaze

Not sure if he simply cannot sustain the fuel and supply drain or if he finally realized he wasn´t getting any results with them. I´m moving the poor 21st MAG back to Suva. Poor guys need a rest. [:D]

I´m leaving this area alone for now. They are strong enough to last for months on their own and if Tom comes I will have lots of time to react. Some smaller AUX ships are moving back towards Pago Pago but the bigger ships will stay hidden down at Tahiti for now.

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aztez
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by aztez »

That PB operation is an gamble. I would say you have 15% chance to succeed and 85% chance of failing big time.

Various reasons behind it...

* It takes time to gather troops and unload them
* You don't have air supremacy nor can you support your invasion TF's.
* It takes time to march through the roads and you will be blasted all the way down there...
* You sure he has not moved out extra INF divisions from China? ..that place is gone so he might have tactical reserves in place.

...than again IF that succeeds than it is definately worth the effort.

As said it is an gamble and it will pay big time or end miserably... if you were already enroute there I would give it 50/50 chance of success.
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Lowpe
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by Lowpe »

I really enjoyed reading your review of pdu off from the Allied perspective.

From the Japanese side there is one area that it may really help Japan: that is supply preservation. In general a slower tempo air war and the war in general, and a more balanced approach to building planes and r&d. At least that is my take.

As Japan, I never use the downgrade/upgrade option to rebuild units as it costs supply. You can, if the unit is divisible, break it down into thirds, reinforce each third with 12 planes, and then rebuild the squadron all in the same turn with 36 planes in reserve.





JocMeister
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by JocMeister »

[font="Verdana"]3rd July 42[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

Very little to report!

------------------------
Burma
------------------------

Tom tries a massed LRCAP/Sweep combo. We do a little better then I expected.
Morning Air attack on Chittagong , at 55,41

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 27 NM, estimated altitude 34,190 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 49
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 18


Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb Trop x 43
Hurricane IIc Trop x 16


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIa Oscar: 2 destroyed
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 1 destroyed


Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIb Trop: 2 destroyed
Hurricane IIc Trop: 2 destroyed

At the end of the day we shoot down 14 Oscars and 2 Nicks for only 7 own losses. No pilots lost.

------------------------
SOPAC
------------------------

The Bombardment TF has indeed withdrawn to Noumea.

Thats about it! [X(]
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JocMeister
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I really enjoyed reading your review of pdu off from the Allied perspective.

From the Japanese side there is one area that it may really help Japan: that is supply preservation. In general a slower tempo air war and the war in general, and a more balanced approach to building planes and r&d. At least that is my take.

As Japan, I never use the downgrade/upgrade option to rebuild units as it costs supply. You can, if the unit is divisible, break it down into thirds, reinforce each third with 12 planes, and then rebuild the squadron all in the same turn with 36 planes in reserve.

I know Loka did some rough and dirty calcs on how much supply that was saved on factory conversions alone. Its wasn´t anything earth shattering but it was pretty considerable. But when you add in all the other things I´m sure it will be pretty considerably!

Will be interesting to see how Toms supply situation looks later in the war. [:)]
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Crackaces
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by Crackaces »

Will be interesting to see how Toms supply situation looks later in the war.

Especially considering moving BB's and the KB so far from home. This is an insidious draw of fuel and the invasions
including the need to support is a draw of supplies.

This link tm.asp?m=2874485&mpage=40&key= finalizes my first exploit into Thailand.
It was in June 1943 not 1942 as the Moose points out but the plan started in 1942. The fundamental strategy was
to let the IJ expand themselves and use operational resources early. There are some key bases that need to be built up
for a Burma central offense. But once the strategy moves forward it takes a huge redeployment from the IJ to stop
and a lot of supplies.
"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
JocMeister
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: Crackaces
Will be interesting to see how Toms supply situation looks later in the war.

Especially considering moving BB's and the KB so far from home. This is an insidious draw of fuel and the invasions
including the need to support is a draw of supplies.

This link tm.asp?m=2874485&mpage=40&key= finalizes my first exploit into Thailand.
It was in June 1943 not 1942 as the Moose points out but the plan started in 1942. The fundamental strategy was
to let the IJ expand themselves and use operational resources early. There are some key bases that need to be built up
for a Burma central offense. But once the strategy moves forward it takes a huge redeployment from the IJ to stop
and a lot of supplies.

Thanks! I already read your AAR twice I think but I´ll check up on the Burma Invasion again. [:)]
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by paullus99 »

Certainly, if you are able to arrange for a couple of diversionary attacks to take place in the weeks leading up to the Hail Mary, then it is possible to draw his reserves out of position to allow the main attack to proceed with less opposition.
Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon...
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by rook749 »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

[font="Verdana"]Burma[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

Problem is that AVG will withdraw in 4 days and I don´t have anything to fill the hole with right now. USAAF is on their way though. 125 P40s are unloading at Karachi but I need to give the pilots more time to train.

Image

Won't you be able to move the AVG pilots into those ACUs that just landed in India? Were you able to get some of the Chines force out? They don't get great planes but with PDU Off with supply they should be more effective.
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rook749
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by rook749 »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

------------------------
Air War and PDU OFF.
------------------------

Still to early to try and make any kind of assessment. But so far its been a PITA for me. This has especially hurt the training program. You have to be REALLY careful on what you upgrade. Once you do you cannot "undo" it. So if you later find yourself wanting those P39s you upgraded to? Nope.

Want to use those lovely P38s? Nope. Only 1 unrestricted squadron can use the "E" model and 1 the "F" model.

Want to use all those nice USMC DB squadrons that arrive? Ah, they upgrade directly to the SBD-3 version. Same as your CVs...this while you have 58 SBD-2s in the pool. But the SBD-2 can only be used by some of your CV squadrons. Did you upgrade those to "3s"? Aaaw too bad! Now you wasted 50 DBs...

I can´t tell you how much of a headache this is. I made so many mistakes and I will continue to do them. I´m very, very, VERY careful when upgrading stuff. Its fun though. [:)]

A good example of why this is much better for the game: My P39s have done some heavy fighting in OZ lately and I want to spread the load on the pools a bit more on the P40. I now actually have to ship the planes and squadrons there. No magic move!

I want to use the P38E. Yep...you guessed it. I have to SHIP the ONLY unrestricted squadron that can use it to wherever I want it. That squadron is actually a very good example of the dangers with PDU OFF and upgrading. Its the 51st/25th FS that actually starts with 4 P38s. At the time I moved them to India I didn´t have nowhere enough "Es" to fill the squadron out. So I almost upgraded them to the P40Es which is their next upgrade. Good thing I didn´t or I would never have been able to use the P38E at all...

I know most people believe PDU OFF is an instant win button for the allies. After playing for 8 months I still don´t agree with that. That opinion might change the further we get though. But as I look through tracker right now I can see for example I will by flying P39s, Mowhawks and Lancers well into 43. Some of 13th USAAF (SOPAC) P39s don´t upgrade until the P38J comes online in 12/43! I have at least one P39 Squadron that doesn´t upgrade until the P47-25 (44/3).

So it does go both ways. But the big difference is that PDU ON together with the ability to control the industry make Japan an immense powerhouse. This is taken away to an extent by PDU OFF. The Japanese side still gets almost unlimited numbers but can no longer focus and drive ahead a few extraordinary models like the Tojo, Frank and George and rely solely on those.

Another HUGE benefit of PDU OFF is that is will slow down the pace of the air war considerably. At some point in the game a limitation was added on how many AC can be drawn as replacements. I think its 12 per week? This is easily bypassed by simply downgrading and then upgrading the model (can be done instantly in PDU ON). This means that a FS could be annihilated to the last plane only to be fully recover 4-6 days later. Now it would take around 10-12 days instead.

Your 36 plane CV DB squadron got shot to pieces? See you in 25 days or so instead of 5.

The teleporting planes are also gone. I remembered when my first batch of 75 P47 arrived in my game with Erik. I simply downgraded them to P39s and 2 days later I had 75 P47s in Burma. This can no longer be done. The planes have to be moved there physically.

As I said I may very well change opinion about PDU OFF as the game progress but right now the only feel I´m getting is that "this is how its supposed to be" feeling. Things are making sense all of the sudden. And at least so far the air war is looking exactly as it does with PDU ON. Tom is kicking my butt in the air war during this critical Japanese expansion phase.

This is simply a great summary of PDU off. I agree that PDU Off is not an instant win for the Allies, it makes the game more historical in the air war ---it does shift the balance back towards the Allies. It gives the Allies the option to fight as the are not facing only the best Japaneses air planes but there are several hidden costs that you highlight very well.
JocMeister
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: rook749
Won't you be able to move the AVG pilots into those ACUs that just landed in India? Were you able to get some of the Chines force out? They don't get great planes but with PDU Off with supply they should be more effective.

Yes, I could. But I want the AVG pilots down in OZ were the heavy fighting is. I could of course have sent them there earlier...but that would have been..untidy! [:D]
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JocMeister
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by JocMeister »

[font="Verdana"]5rd July 42[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

Very little to report again. First Tojos are online as 9(!) are lost to OPS all of the sudden on the same day. Huh?

------------------------
SOPAC
------------------------

Tom is indeed pulling back towards Noumea. Looks like he is evacuating Kandavu Isl as well. Interesting. Got some Intel from a F-4 flying over Noumea. Over 100.000 men reported there. SL is only 35k. That must burn some supply...

Part of the bombardment TF reached Brisbane this turn. I´m still torn about entering the hex. Going to pull in some subs first. KB is still gone. But a sub came across this:
ASW attack near Belep Islands at 115,152

Japanese Ships
DD Makigumo
DD Kazegumo


Allied Ships
SS O24

Don´t remember seeing these two before in the area.

Uhm...yeah...thats it! Very quiet!
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by BBfanboy »

Check the Recon skill on the pilots in that F-4 squadron. I doubt they are very high, and until they train up over 50 in the skill their reports are very suspect.
Having said that, if there really are 100,000 troops at Noumea, I wonder if he is just unloading some ships to reorganize his amphib TFs before he reloads the troops.
My gut feel though is that he canceled an invasion when he saw how much he was facing.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
JocMeister
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Check the Recon skill on the pilots in that F-4 squadron. I doubt they are very high, and until they train up over 50 in the skill their reports are very suspect.
Having said that, if there really are 100,000 troops at Noumea, I wonder if he is just unloading some ships to reorganize his amphib TFs before he reloads the troops.
My gut feel though is that he canceled an invasion when he saw how much he was facing.

The pilots are good (RCN 65+) so I take its pretty accurate. As you say he might just be reorganizing. Should have moved some troops out to LaFoa though. That much overstack probably eats a couple of thousand supply per day!
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JocMeister
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by JocMeister »

I have many "rule of thumbs" concerning this game. Like: "1 lost 4E for each airborne fighter" or "P40s suck"...its a long list. [:D] But somewhere in that list there is a particular one that says "whenever you try to be really smart it backfires on you".

Guess we will see if that and the P40 one still holds tomorrow...though my RoT list is never wrong so the outcome is pretty given! At least its Friday...

Tonights drinking: (not the first time it has appeared here [:D])
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeE3Twf6B1I

Skål!
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by Cribtop »

HOO-ray, Beer!
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JocMeister
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by JocMeister »

[font="Verdana"]7th July 42[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

Seems my bad luck is holding...

------------------------
SOPAC
------------------------

I´ve been itching to try and hit the myriad of AKEs that has been sitting at Kandavu. With the decreased CAP and disappearance of the KB I finally got the chance.

LRCAP from Suva and 45 B17s flying from the Samoans. As icing on the cake a big TF was loading at Kandavu and I sneaked in a small CL TF centered around Achilles and Perth withing striking distance.

Firstly the CL TF decide that instead of moving 9 hexes at full speed we move one 1. [8|] Okay, that sucks but lets go in the next night instead. This time they go only to find the TF loading troops have already left and is halfway to Noumea!

The port attack? Yeah, everything works perfectly. Except Tom emptied out the ports and moved set them on their way to Noumea the same turn my bombers go in. So I loose 3 P40s and 6 B17s for absolutely nothing.

Come on. Give me a break will you. [:(]

------------------------
OZ
------------------------

I´ve decided not to move into Brisbane right now. There is no point as the CD guns I brought won´t fire back and the clear terrain will make DIS so high I cannot attack anyway.

I need to establish air superiority before I can try. Working on that...

------------------------
China
------------------------

Tom easily crossed the river over to Paoshan.
Ground combat at Paoshan (65,45)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 23452 troops, 311 guns, 64 vehicles, Assault Value = 633

Defending force 15682 troops, 93 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 648

Japanese adjusted assault: 341

Allied adjusted defense: 1981

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 5 (fort level 1)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
1596 casualties reported
Squads: 9 destroyed, 291 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 38 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 21 disabled
Guns lost 26 (1 destroyed, 25 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
270 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 30 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Assaulting units:
Imperial Guards Division
112th Infantry Regiment
5th Mortar Battalion
3rd Mortar Battalion
3rd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
21st Medium Field Artillery Battalion


Defending units:
66th Chinese Corps

Its not like this 650 AV Corp was sitting in x3 terrain with level 3 forts and actually had supply? Oh wait...So Tom is safely across now and immediately started bombarding my troops. This will mean the end of Paoshan in 2-3 weeks. Great.

------------------------
Other news
------------------------

Not much actually. I may be looking at an Ceylon invasion as the 18th have started prepping for Colombo. If KB is actually moving into the area its a possibility although an unlikely one.

Just to make sure I´m moving the newly arrived 2nd British ID to Colombo. The 23rd Indian is already there and the forts should reach 6 in 2 weeks or so. I´ll also move some CD guns to make sure.

Slightly bitter about my bad lack during the last 2 turns. I think I deserve a break by now...


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JocMeister
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RE: Japanese land in OZ!!

Post by JocMeister »

[font="Verdana"]Pilot Training[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

I´m finally starting to "clean up" the pools. In 2 months or so I should have them to what I want.

Fighters
EXP 50 AIR 70 DEF 70

But I also train a small number perhaps 50 or so in LowN and STRF. This will be mostly for novelty as the P39 has such a poor range it can seldom be used for "barge busting"

Bombers
Here I differ from what the "experts" say. I try to avoid dual training. Why? Because if I train pilots in two different skills and they get killed doing one thing the other training is wasted. That time could have been used training a second pilot instead.

So I train them in three categories:
GRND (4Es + 2Es)
LowN (Attack bombers)

I also train a bunch of pilots in regular NavB. There are instances when I will use 2Es for naval strikes. If I do I simply change the pilots.

I also don´t worry too much about EXP. Once they are past 40-45 I send them back to the pool as long as they have 70+ in their intended role. Why? Because its not going to make a difference. One bad day and you will lose 50 pilots. It doesn´t matter if they are EXP 40 or EXP 70. They are going to die nonetheless. I had 90+ EXP pilots with 90+ in DEF flying B29s during the night over the HI. 95% were dead within 2 months...I might have lost more flying worse pilots sure. But it took 3 years to get those pilots to where they were. 1-2 months extra training won´t effect anything.

When it comes to bomber pilots its not about quality but quantity. Somewhere around mid 44 I had 20 FS + all restricted BGs doing nothing but training pilots in GRND. Thats something like 600 pilots in a single training cycle. It still wasn´t enough as I was flying EXP40/GRND 60 at the end of the war. A large part of this is because many (most?) of the B29 pilots arrive with bombers trained in the wrong skill. Mostly in LowN and RCN. My last game was PDU ON though which meant Erik had almost unlimited numbers of Fighters and Night Fighters. PDU OFF might increase bomber survivabilty a bit.

CV DB/TB
This is a different story. Here you have to dual train and even triple train.

DBs + TBs need NavB + NavS + ASW. Don´t neglect ASW. You will lose CVs to subs whatever you do but this might save a few.

I also train a small amount of Fighter pilots in Air + RCN to use those Wildcats that come with a camera.

Patrol
NavS obviously and if given time ASW.

Recon
Well...doh. [:)]

I handpick every single pilot. Its a bit of a hassle but it also gives me complete control of who goes where. Once you get the hang of it its quite fast en efficient and I rarely spend more then 5 minutes per turn fiddling with pilots. Once a month I go through all the training squadrons. This is made easier by sending all squadrons used for training into the same base. Say Eastern USA/Karachi/Melbourne/Canada/Wellington.

In all honestly I like the old way of WITP better. I don´t find that ON MAP training adds much if anything to the game but more micro management. Its now a requirement if you are to have any success in the air war. So pay attention to it.



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