An inglorius end to a wondeful ship...

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Bullwinkle58
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RE: An inglorius end to a wondeful ship...

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


That was pretty much the USN's policy till the Arleigh Burke was launched. The feeling was , "he's a man in his 90's , in a nursing home , who can hardly stand. He's not going to embarrass himself or the Navy". And the flood gate was opened. Presidents Carter and Bush (41) had ships named for them while alive and active. (OK Reagan was in a nursing home with Alzheimer's...not exactly a threat).

CV's were NEVER named for presidents till the FDR.

The only thing that is consistent about the USN's current naming policy is that it is never consistent. Look at the Seawolf class. There are only 3 boats. The Seawolf, The Jimmy Carter , and the Connecticut. If there is a pattern there . I fail to discern it. [:(]

Only "pretty much." USS Rickover. Mendel Rivers was dead when his boat was commissioned, but don't know about when it was named. Same with Richard B. Russell. Scoop Jackson was dead but still warm when they converted his boomer over in mid-construction. While I was on mine there three SSBNs named "USS Jackson" at the same time. We got the other two's mail frequently.

I believe the statute empowers SecNav to name warships, but Congress makes "suggestions" and SecNav does what they want. Golden Rule and all.

As far as submarine naming it's a dog's breakfast. We can't seem to figure out if subs are cruiser analogies or battleship analogies. Certainly the main battery of an SSBN qualifies them as a capital ship. I don't know any bubbleheads who wouldn't be in favor of going back to fish. My favorite was always USS Sand Lance. Sounds like a warship.
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RE: An inglorius end to a wondeful ship...

Post by AW1Steve »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


That was pretty much the USN's policy till the Arleigh Burke was launched. The feeling was , "he's a man in his 90's , in a nursing home , who can hardly stand. He's not going to embarrass himself or the Navy". And the flood gate was opened. Presidents Carter and Bush (41) had ships named for them while alive and active. (OK Reagan was in a nursing home with Alzheimer's...not exactly a threat).

CV's were NEVER named for presidents till the FDR.

The only thing that is consistent about the USN's current naming policy is that it is never consistent. Look at the Seawolf class. There are only 3 boats. The Seawolf, The Jimmy Carter , and the Connecticut. If there is a pattern there . I fail to discern it. [:(]

Only "pretty much." USS Rickover. Mendel Rivers was dead when his boat was commissioned, but don't know about when it was named. Same with Richard B. Russell. Scoop Jackson was dead but still warm when they converted his boomer over in mid-construction. While I was on mine there three SSBNs named "USS Jackson" at the same time. We got the other two's mail frequently.

I believe the statute empowers SecNav to name warships, but Congress makes "suggestions" and SecNav does what they want. Golden Rule and all.

As far as submarine naming it's a dog's breakfast. We can't seem to figure out if subs are cruiser analogies or battleship analogies. Certainly the main battery of an SSBN qualifies them as a capital ship. I don't know any bubbleheads who wouldn't be in favor of going back to fish. My favorite was always USS Sand Lance. Sounds like a warship.

My understanding was that the administration was so concerned that some of Rickover's "pet congressmen" would name a CVN after him, that they changed the name of the next LA boat to Rickover , then named the next two CVN's Washington and Lincoln ASAP so that no one would dare change them.

Once again , who's responsible for the "Non-fish" naming of subs? Hyman Rickover who's most famous quote was "Fish don't vote", congressmen do. So you have the LA class, originally named for the districts of congressmen who supported Rickover. And ov course he was the driving force (and most vocal defender of) the "Famous American" class....SSBN's. He wrote a book and had a government movie done (41 for Freedom) to defend his choice. [8|]


In my view , SSBN's are the baddest capital ship we own. They should be captained by....well, captains. And named after states. [:D]
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RE: An inglorius end to a wondeful ship...

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


That was pretty much the USN's policy till the Arleigh Burke was launched. The feeling was , "he's a man in his 90's , in a nursing home , who can hardly stand. He's not going to embarrass himself or the Navy". And the flood gate was opened. Presidents Carter and Bush (41) had ships named for them while alive and active. (OK Reagan was in a nursing home with Alzheimer's...not exactly a threat).

CV's were NEVER named for presidents till the FDR.

The only thing that is consistent about the USN's current naming policy is that it is never consistent. Look at the Seawolf class. There are only 3 boats. The Seawolf, The Jimmy Carter , and the Connecticut. If there is a pattern there . I fail to discern it. [:(]

Only "pretty much." USS Rickover. Mendel Rivers was dead when his boat was commissioned, but don't know about when it was named. Same with Richard B. Russell. Scoop Jackson was dead but still warm when they converted his boomer over in mid-construction. While I was on mine there three SSBNs named "USS Jackson" at the same time. We got the other two's mail frequently.

I believe the statute empowers SecNav to name warships, but Congress makes "suggestions" and SecNav does what they want. Golden Rule and all.

As far as submarine naming it's a dog's breakfast. We can't seem to figure out if subs are cruiser analogies or battleship analogies. Certainly the main battery of an SSBN qualifies them as a capital ship. I don't know any bubbleheads who wouldn't be in favor of going back to fish. My favorite was always USS Sand Lance. Sounds like a warship.

My understanding was that the administration was so concerned that some of Rickover's "pet congressmen" would name a CVN after him, that they changed the name of the next LA boat to Rickover , then named the next two CVN's Washington and Lincoln ASAP so that no one would dare change them.

Once again , who's responsible for the "Non-fish" naming of subs? Hyman Rickover who's most famous quote was "Fish don't vote", congressmen do. So you have the LA class, originally named for the districts of congressmen who supported Rickover. And ov course he was the driving force (and most vocal defender of) the "Famous American" class....SSBN's. He wrote a book and had a government movie done (41 for Freedom) to defend his choice. [8|]


In my view , SSBN's are the baddest capital ship we own. They should be captained by....well, captains. And named after states. [:D]

I think you've been told some sea stories. [:)]

USS Rickover was ordered in 1973, USS G. Washington not until 1982. Rickover was not unloved in the Nixon administration, although Zumwalt probably hated him. Rickover did say "fish don't vote." But I don't see LA-class naming following any pro-Navy congressional districts. They started with big cities and went down to smaller ones. Actual urban areas also tend to be highly Democratic and not as pro-defense as rural and suburban areas. If Rickover were looking to reward pro-navy congressmen it would have been the Norfolk-class.

I also would not say he was the driving force for the SSBNs. Adm. Raborn maybe. Rickover had nothing to do with the weapons system. USS George Washington was a cut-in-half SSN (ex-Scorpion I think) with a missile house dropped in the middle. If you were looking for a non-military cheerleader for the boomers I'd nominate LBJ when he was Senate Majority Leader.

The only reference to a book by Rickover I can find is a Government Printing Office pamphlet from 1972, a collection of letters from Rickover on the bios of the original 41 namesakes. The class was built out by then.

There ARE a lot of Rickover stories. I was in my CO's off-crew office one time when he called to ask about a training report. (He read every training report from every nuke ship every month. Every, single, one.) My CO was a frocked O-6 at the time, but he went ridgid as a board in his desk chair, sat at attention, white as a sheet.
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RE: An inglorius end to a wondeful ship...

Post by Symon »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
There ARE a lot of Rickover stories. I was in my CO's off-crew office one time when he called to ask about a training report. (He read every training report from every nuke ship every month. Every, single, one.) My CO was a frocked O-6 at the time, but he went ridgid as a board in his desk chair, sat at attention, white as a sheet.
Yes there are. When I became a partner at Christie, Parker & Hale, I worked with William P. Christie in the Orange County office. He was an (ex) Nuc Eng Officer way back when. Some of you with access to the records will know who Bill was.

I loved all things technical in those days, and Bill and I spent many an evening discussing this and that. He was interviewed by Rickover before getting his first assignment. He interfaced with Rickover on three more occasions. He liked him. Rickover wasn't the troll that he is made out to be by the establishment.

Just a little reality check. JWE
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RE: An inglorius end to a wondeful ship...

Post by AW1Steve »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58




Only "pretty much." USS Rickover. Mendel Rivers was dead when his boat was commissioned, but don't know about when it was named. Same with Richard B. Russell. Scoop Jackson was dead but still warm when they converted his boomer over in mid-construction. While I was on mine there three SSBNs named "USS Jackson" at the same time. We got the other two's mail frequently.

I believe the statute empowers SecNav to name warships, but Congress makes "suggestions" and SecNav does what they want. Golden Rule and all.

As far as submarine naming it's a dog's breakfast. We can't seem to figure out if subs are cruiser analogies or battleship analogies. Certainly the main battery of an SSBN qualifies them as a capital ship. I don't know any bubbleheads who wouldn't be in favor of going back to fish. My favorite was always USS Sand Lance. Sounds like a warship.

My understanding was that the administration was so concerned that some of Rickover's "pet congressmen" would name a CVN after him, that they changed the name of the next LA boat to Rickover , then named the next two CVN's Washington and Lincoln ASAP so that no one would dare change them.

Once again , who's responsible for the "Non-fish" naming of subs? Hyman Rickover who's most famous quote was "Fish don't vote", congressmen do. So you have the LA class, originally named for the districts of congressmen who supported Rickover. And ov course he was the driving force (and most vocal defender of) the "Famous American" class....SSBN's. He wrote a book and had a government movie done (41 for Freedom) to defend his choice. [8|]


In my view , SSBN's are the baddest capital ship we own. They should be captained by....well, captains. And named after states. [:D]

I think you've been told some sea stories. [:)]

USS Rickover was ordered in 1973, USS G. Washington not until 1982. Rickover was not unloved in the Nixon administration, although Zumwalt probably hated him. Rickover did say "fish don't vote." But I don't see LA-class naming following any pro-Navy congressional districts. They started with big cities and went down to smaller ones. Actual urban areas also tend to be highly Democratic and not as pro-defense as rural and suburban areas. If Rickover were looking to reward pro-navy congressmen it would have been the Norfolk-class.

I also would not say he was the driving force for the SSBNs. Adm. Raborn maybe. Rickover had nothing to do with the weapons system. USS George Washington was a cut-in-half SSN (ex-Scorpion I think) with a missile house dropped in the middle. If you were looking for a non-military cheerleader for the boomers I'd nominate LBJ when he was Senate Majority Leader.

The only reference to a book by Rickover I can find is a Government Printing Office pamphlet from 1972, a collection of letters from Rickover on the bios of the original 41 namesakes. The class was built out by then.

There ARE a lot of Rickover stories. I was in my CO's off-crew office one time when he called to ask about a training report. (He read every training report from every nuke ship every month. Every, single, one.) My CO was a frocked O-6 at the time, but he went ridgid as a board in his desk chair, sat at attention, white as a sheet.


I'll have to surrender to you for now Moose. I'll need to pull out books, biographies , back issues of proceedings etc. Too much like a research project , and I'm just too lazy. And as far as the "sea stories" go , they were mostly "bubblehead" O-6's and two rear admirals who had enjoyed too much single malt to ever be called to court.[:D]
Actually Rickover wrote several books , including one on the sinking of the Maine. And I'm not unbiased. I knew several Diesel boat skippers , admired them , and always resented how Rickover wouldn't let them in "his Navy". Rayburn honchoed Polaris , but Rickover owned the boat and crew.

So for now I'll withdraw from the arena. But if I ever do the research , I hope to share it with you in person , perhaps over a bottle of single malt? [:D]
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RE: An inglorius end to a wondeful ship...

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

Rickover is one of the most interesting officers ever to serve, good and bad. I've only picked up this and that over the years, but I knew a lot of men who sat through those interviews, including one who tried his best to fail it.

Rickover had already served a full career and then some when he started NR. He did 63 years, which is just stunning. He survived a lot of anti-Semitism (I don't know if the perforated-page in the USNA yearbook story is true, but it could be) and was a very capable but sidelined O-6 at the end of WWII. But he had a vision and the ability to sell it.

He wasn't perfect, he could be prickly, especially later in his career, and he did sideline very good officers for not very good reasons. I saw that on my boat with a strat weaps officer with an undergrad Physics degree, post-tour from USS Bonefish. The best JO ship-driver we had by a long shot. He wanted to stay, but strat weaps was a dead end after department head tour. Tried to cross into nuclear power and hit a wall. Got out of the service instead. Would have made a great CO.
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RE: An inglorius end to a wondeful ship...

Post by Bearcat2 »

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Problem is that they now name them after dead (or near dead) presidents. Not horrible, but I just don't think it strikes a whole lot of fear into the enemy. What ever happened to carriers named Hornet and Wasp? Those are some seriously intimidating names..[;)]


How about future presidents, like the Continental frigate Washington 1775; or the USS Adams 1797 ?
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RE: An inglorius end to a wondeful ship...

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: Symon

I loved all things technical in those days, and Bill and I spent many an evening discussing this and that. He was interviewed by Rickover before getting his first assignment. He interfaced with Rickover on three more occasions. He liked him. Rickover wasn't the troll that he is made out to be by the establishment.

Just a little reality check. JWE

Those interviews were legendary. Every nuke used to compare notes with each other. He liked to put people in coat closets, sometimes for hours. He was insulting. He asked if the candidate had kids, and if they did he insulted that, asking why they were wasting time when they could be working on their profession. Same with wives. He looked at college transcripts and asked for each and every grade below an 'A' why that was so and why had the officer been too stupid or lazy to excel.

I heard one story--don't know if it's true--where he demanded the interviewee try to make him angry. He left the room for a minute to let him think, then stormed in shouting it was time. The Ensign reached to the desk, took the scale model of USS Nautilus presented by the first crew to Rickover, broke it over his knee, and threw it out the window. Rickover turned red, grabbed the desk, said "Get out" in a hiss, and passed the man on into power school.

The guy I knew who tried to fail was a non-volunteer who wanted to go to flight school. Half way through the interview Rickover stopped and said "You're trying to fail. I like that kind of nerve. I'm going to take you."
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RE: An inglorius end to a wondeful ship...

Post by bobogoboom »

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

CVN-65 USS Enterprise is also due to be scrapped. Jacksonville tried to save Saratoga (CV-60). But no one has preserved a Super carrier yet. Midway's still the biggest. [:(]
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RE: An inglorius end to a wondeful ship...

Post by bobogoboom »

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

I think they should try to preserve one non nuclear super carrier, maybe JFK, as it is not possible to preserve nuclear vessels

Why not? They preserved Nautilus. The Russians preserved Lenin. You cut out the reactor vessels and burry them. In fact Nautilus still has her's.

No, the problem with supper carriers is the scale. The EPA requirements alone are amazing! But what they COULD do is dig a big trench , pull the CV in , then backfill around the hull. The Japanese did that with the Pre-dreadnought Mikasa.
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RE: An inglorius end to a wondeful ship...

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The only proper way for a warship to die is from the last shell of the last sea battle of the last naval war, to paraphrase Patton.
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RE: An inglorius end to a wondeful ship...

Post by msieving1 »

ORIGINAL: Zorch

The only proper way for a warship to die is from the last shell of the last sea battle of the last naval war, to paraphrase Patton.

I imagine the crew of the ship would have other ideas.
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RE: An inglorius end to a wondeful ship...

Post by Zorch »

ORIGINAL: msieving1

ORIGINAL: Zorch

The only proper way for a warship to die is from the last shell of the last sea battle of the last naval war, to paraphrase Patton.

I imagine the crew of the ship would have other ideas.
I meant the ship, not the people on her. [:)]
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RE: An inglorius end to a wondeful ship...

Post by mind_messing »

ORIGINAL: Zorch

The only proper way for a warship to die is from the last shell of the last sea battle of the last naval war, to paraphrase Patton.

Patton is scarce the man to win awards for the concern he had towards his men...
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RE: An inglorius end to a wondeful ship...

Post by Endy »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Patton is scarce the man to win awards for the concern he had towards his men...

Still better than A LOT of others, not to mention the Soviets :)
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RE: An inglorius end to a wondeful ship...

Post by Zorch »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
ORIGINAL: Zorch

The only proper way for a warship to die is from the last shell of the last sea battle of the last naval war, to paraphrase Patton.

Patton is scarce the man to win awards for the concern he had towards his men...

Agreed - the classic line (from Patton) was "Our blood, his guts".
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RE: An inglorius end to a wondeful ship...

Post by elxaime »

Assuming all the environmental issues can be addressed, why not sink these vessels in a place that could benefit from having an artificial reef? I read somewhere that many of the Pacific War wrecks have turned out to be great wildlife habitats.
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RE: An inglorius end to a wondeful ship...

Post by wdolson »

The Oriskany was sunk to become a reef in the Gulf of Mexico. Some smaller ships have been sunk to become artificial reefs.

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RE: An inglorius end to a wondeful ship...

Post by wegman58 »

On the Discovery family of networks there were a pair of shows - DEATH OF A CARRIER (Oriskany) and DEATH OF A DESTROYER. The destroyer one made me feel VERY old. When I was a young sailor I was in a task group with the destroyer SINK-EX ship. It was one of the Canadian Tribal class, and it was brand new at the time. I'm wondering - WHY are they sinking her, I remember when she was new. Then realized that she was new over 30 years ago.

My post Navy career is at a defense contractor - got to see some of our products in action during the SINK-EX. What is interesting is that we build the stuff, but never see it work. I saw the stuff work before I got involved in making it.
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RE: An inglorius end to a wondeful ship...

Post by Symon »

ORIGINAL: wdolson
The Oriskany was sunk to become a reef in the Gulf of Mexico. Some smaller ships have been sunk to become artificial reefs.

Bill
Oriskany is great dive site. Couple dive shops in Pensacola have regular trips to the site. It's two different kinds of dives: the top of the island is only 70' down, so you can go through the bridge, pri-fly, gun emplacements, and all kinds of neat stuff without going much below 100'. Tons of 'critters' all over the place, so it's doing a great job as a reef home. The flight deck is at 130' and one can go deeper and go into the hanger area. Not for me. That's a decompression dive, or one for the Nitrox boys, but it's supposed to be really fun. Water is very clear, with lots of filtered sunlight. Excellent 2 tank day trip with one morning dive, a long surface interval, and then an afternoon dive. Recommended.

[ed] I really like how people treat the Oriskany. She is more then a reef home, she is a memorial. Some of the local dive people hoisted a national flag off the aft end of the island. It's made of sailcloth and is stiffened by batten material. It should last forever. On the dive I went on, the divemaster had a sponge that he used to wipe the brown sludge off so the flag could be bright and clean. He said they do it every time.
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