Desert Issues

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Mad Russian
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Desert Issues

Post by Mad Russian »

Those of you that have served in the deserts of the world know they come with their own brand of issues.

Wouldn't thermal sights be degraded in a desert environment during the heat of the day? In North Africa the Germans would dig in their weapons below the heat haze and make them virtually invisible.

Here is a photo I ran across showing LOS in the desert. Or at least what people believe LOS is like in the desert. Parts of it yes.

All of it?

Far from it.

Good Hunting.

MR

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hazmaxed
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RE: Desert Issues

Post by hazmaxed »

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

Those of you that have served in the deserts of the world know they come with their own brand of issues.

Wouldn't thermal sights be degraded in a desert environment during the heat of the day? In North Africa the Germans would dig in their weapons below the heat haze and make them virtually invisible.

Here is a photo I ran across showing LOS in the desert. Or at least what people believe LOS is like in the desert. Parts of it yes.

All of it?

Far from it.

Good Hunting.

MR

Image

I don't remember that our M1A1 thermals were affected much during the hottest part of the day. Vehicles sitting in the sun get hotter than the surrounding terrain, so they stand out in an M1A1 thermal sight quite clearly because of the difference in temperature. I can't speak for other thermal systems, since I have no experience with them.
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CapnDarwin
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RE: Desert Issues

Post by CapnDarwin »

What about during a sand storm?
OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

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hazmaxed
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RE: Desert Issues

Post by hazmaxed »

I can't say.  I've been through a couple of sandstorms, but I've never had to use a thermal sight during one.  My guess is that it would degrade performance, but still be better than daylight sights.
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RE: Desert Issues

Post by Mad Russian »

73 Easting took place in a sand storm IIRC. Seems the opening shot was at 1420 meters.

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76mm
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RE: Desert Issues

Post by 76mm »

I agree with hazmaxed's comments.
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RE: Desert Issues

Post by Tazak »

Shifting sandbanks moving with the wind - changing landscape [:D] - yea I know fantasy dream time but hey gotta do it once or 100 times in a while
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IronMikeGolf
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RE: Desert Issues

Post by IronMikeGolf »

1. IVLs (Inter Visibility Lines). Those are tiny bits of relief less than a supplementary contour line (i.e. 5 or 10 meters elevation change). Look at the terrain with binos or Mk 1 eyeball and you swear it's a billard table. No terrain feature there. Watch a vehicle drive towards you and you will see it dip out of sight every so often. And they are directional. This is probably too hard to model in the game. Then again, if you use hex sides for that, maybe not. What would this look like in the game? You have a hex with a cover rating of 20%, but direct fire from a hex of the same elevation level that crosses a particular hex side is subject to a cover rating of 60%. All other direct and all indirect fire uses the 20% rating.

2. A shut down AFV (no engine start all night, not fired any rounds all night) is all but invisible in thermals . Tank and Bradley crews took a bit to figure out that the hot spots seemingly hovering a few meters in the air were AFV commander's heads sticking out of their turret hatches. Something that small cuts the detection range down to well under 2 klicks. Stay buttoned up, scan your sector using hand cranks, and remain on radio listening silence and you are invisible after midnight or so.

3. Speaking of not fired any rounds: a gun tube (tank main gun, IFV auto-cannon, machinegun) that has fired within an hour or two simply BLAZES in thermals. Engine heat ain't nothin' compared to that. Such a target ought to be more detectable by thermals and have a less FOW regarding number and type of vehicles.

4. Sand/dust is excellent at attenuating the thermal signal. You can see it get kicked up by vehicle maneuvering in the dirt. Water (i.e. fog) is too. Sand and dust simply block the photons (like an intact rock does). Water both scatters and absorbs. Of course, with both of these, up to a certain point, a given density blocks the visual spectrum (and near IR used by light amplification type sensors) more than far IR (thermal). So, below a certain point, you can see further with thermals. But, get it dense enough and a small enough temp difference between the target and background, and you can't see a target 500 meters away. You gunners that qualified at Graf know what I am talking about.
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MikeGER
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RE: Desert Issues

Post by MikeGER »

ORIGINAL: Iron Mike Golf

1. IVLs (Inter Visibility Lines). Those are tiny bits of relief less than a supplementary contour line (i.e. 5 or 10 meters elevation change). Look at the terrain with binos or Mk 1 eyeball and you swear it's a billard table. No terrain feature there. Watch a vehicle drive towards you and you will see it dip out of sight every so often. And they are directional. This is probably too hard to model in the game. Then again, if you use hex sides for that, maybe not. What would this look like in the game? You have a hex with a cover rating of 20%, but direct fire from a hex of the same elevation level that crosses a particular hex side is subject to a cover rating of 60%. All other direct and all indirect fire uses the 20% rating.

Very interesting fact from the RL battlefields [:)]

I think in a first step that could be simulated on a bigger scale (large dunes) without altering the game mechanics (by adding another mathematcial dimension to the 5 dimensional matrix that describes the hex-board) by defining different types of desert-hexes whith slightly increased mobility hindrance 20, 25, 30, (more hilly = lower speed) but more different Cover settings of 20%, 40% , 60% (or other numbers in steps)

now the trick would be to place those hexes in a pattern (and you will see some axes with 'low cover' ...like a Bishop move on chess board as a simple example for a pattern)

looking more into the detail of a hex vs. hex, consider we are still using a 'median' of 500m spot to another 'median' of 500m spot and the likeability for several spaced out units like 4 M1 tracing lines to also spaced out 4 - 10 enemy units in the other hex
so if you just give the those IVL dessert hex a 60% cover value instead of 30 (assumed standard desert) it would simulate that only half the vehicles get the benefit of the IVLs -LOS while others in the same hex are just have the wrong angle.

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CapnDarwin
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RE: Desert Issues

Post by CapnDarwin »

Good info and ideas guys.
OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

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jack54
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RE: Desert Issues

Post by jack54 »

A big sincere 'Thanks' to all the real world military guys, first for your service and second for continuing to give great information to armchair commanders like me. This really helps get a handle on what's going on!
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battlerbritain
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RE: Desert Issues

Post by battlerbritain »

I know Brit Challenger 1s had an electric generator (I think at the rear of the vehicle) that was used for power for all optics/thermals and power turret traverse without having to run the engine.

That meant that the vehicle could stay 'cool' whilst on defensive watch without having to run the engine. It also saved on fuel.

I remember Brit crews remarking that M1's would use a lot of fuel on defensive watch as they had to use their engines.

Not sure how true that is and whether that was before GW1?

I also know that the thermals on Chall1 were amazing! [:)]

And yes, guns get hot when fired. Imagine what happens to a big, long tube when it gets hot? [;)] Yeah, it bends. Then realise what an MRS is used for. Note that US, WG, UK and Israeli tanks use MRS but Sov tanks don't.

Reason: well if you look at the stats (increase in SD) accuracy degradation doesn't really have much effect below 1km. See WW2 tanks for examples of that. And that is the range Sov tanks are generally designed to operate at.

Hope this helps,

B
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hazmaxed
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RE: Desert Issues

Post by hazmaxed »

ORIGINAL: battlerbritain

I know Brit Challenger 1s had an electric generator (I think at the rear of the vehicle) that was used for power for all optics/thermals and power turret traverse without having to run the engine.

That meant that the vehicle could stay 'cool' whilst on defensive watch without having to run the engine. It also saved on fuel.

I remember Brit crews remarking that M1's would use a lot of fuel on defensive watch as they had to use their engines.

Not sure how true that is and whether that was before GW1?

I also know that the thermals on Chall1 were amazing! [:)]

And yes, guns get hot when fired. Imagine what happens to a big, long tube when it gets hot? [;)] Yeah, it bends. Then realise what an MRS is used for. Note that US, WG, UK and Israeli tanks use MRS but Sov tanks don't.

Reason: well if you look at the stats (increase in SD) accuracy degradation doesn't really have much effect below 1km. See WW2 tanks for examples of that. And that is the range Sov tanks are generally designed to operate at.

Hope this helps,

B

Yes, we did burn a good deal of fuel running our TISs on night watch. You could run a TIS without running the engine, but your driver better be keeping one eye open and on the battery gauge, or you would end up going on a "walk of shame" to ask another tank to drive over and jump-start your engine because you let your batteries die.

An auxiliary power unit (APU) was being tested in the 1st Cavalry Division for the M1 just prior to GW1. My battalion was not involved with the test, but I understand they had some problems with mechanical reliability. The APU was a large box mounted on the right rear corner of the hull. The 1st CD deployed to the Gulf with M1s, but turned them all in for M1A1s in theater around December 1990. I don't know if the units that were testing the APUs removed them from their M1s and put them on their M1A1s or not.

Later versions of the M1A1 (from the early 90s) had an APU in the turret bustle rack that ran off of deisel fuel or JP8.
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mikeCK
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RE: Desert Issues

Post by mikeCK »

Lol...I find this thread fascinating. Forgetting about the game, just the description of capabilities is great. I was an 11B so I never had the opportunity to so much with Armored vehicles other than watch them drive by while I walked
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RE: Desert Issues

Post by Mad Russian »

Modern armored combat holds little resemblance or comparison to it's WWII predecessor. Things are far more complex in today's world.

Good Hunting.

MR
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Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
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