This game still unplayable?

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

Moderators: Joel Billings, elmo3, Sabre21

charlie0311
Posts: 940
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:15 am

RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by charlie0311 »

what do you mean by major combat force? If you mean say 8 RDs (rifle divs) with 5 CV that gives approx attack power of 40. That's nowhere near enough to retreat 2 Pz divs without the 1:1 bonus.

Haven't compared CR CVs with the on map CVs but I will get around to it. The stuff I listed above hadn't gone to refit yet and a lot was fairly low TOE wise, so some room to grow. In any case the sov will get precious few high strength (morale and cv) units in all of '41. I'll be specific, cv 6 and morale over 55. The cav corp (dec) that's your combat power until inf corp become available. Long after the 1:1 bonus is gone.
Oshawott
Posts: 1353
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:27 pm

RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by Oshawott »

what do you mean by major combat force? If you mean say 8 RDs (rifle divs) with 5 CV that gives approx attack power of 40. That's nowhere near enough to retreat 2 Pz divs without the 1:1 bonus.

charlie0311 you are right and you are wrong. You are right that 5x8=40 [;)]. You are wrong in the assumption that this is not enough to move a stack of 2 or 3 Pz divisions in clear terain. You have to remember that these are not static Pz divisions. They have usually traveled 10-15 hexes (or more) with 3-4 combats (or more). There fatigue is in the 80s, many of their elements are damaged. CV of those units is usually greatly reduced. But even that reduced number means nothing because of fatigue.
User avatar
loki100
Posts: 11699
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:38 pm
Location: Utlima Thule

RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: Oshawott
what do you mean by major combat force? If you mean say 8 RDs (rifle divs) with 5 CV that gives approx attack power of 40. That's nowhere near enough to retreat 2 Pz divs without the 1:1 bonus.

charlie0311 you are right and you are wrong. You are right that 5x8=40 [;)]. You are wrong in the assumption that this is not enough to move a stack of 2 or 3 Pz divisions in clear terain. You have to remember that these are not static Pz divisions. They have usually traveled 10-15 hexes (or more) with 3-4 combats (or more). There fatigue is in the 80s, many of their elements are damaged. CV of those units is usually greatly reduced. But even that reduced number means nothing because of fatigue.

also don't forget the impact of mass. In effect all those less well trained Soviets in the 8 divisions (? 85-95,000 men) are shooting things at the 35,000 in the 3 German Pzr divisions. Things get even more interesting with a pre-attack bombing raid and the commitment of SUs.

So the Germans are weaker than the CV implies and you are a lot stronger. My logic is if you start out at 1-2 in terms of cv, mass etc will get you to 1-1 and then the +1. If you have this cycle set up, due to the vagaries of the combat system, especially if you've used your best commanders, its quite likely that the various modifications will bring this out at 3-1 not 2-1.

With the +1, this is near enough to a sure win (see I do agree with Pelton), without its a likely win and becomes more of a gamble as if it goes wrong you've wrecked some key formations and lost a lot of men. Even so, making aggressive use of the brief period in late July/August when the Germans have to be overextended (=fatigue), you have the 1941b oob, and you can ignore the south for replacements, is going to be key.

I realise you fully understand this is how you protect Leningrad/Moscow and set up divisions to convert to Gds but I think you are relying too much on the notional CV.

If I understand one of Morveal's posts, 1.08 will improve the accuracy of visible cv, which will stop a lot of this 'slaughter a chicken to check the entrails' mode of gameplay.
User avatar
Peltonx
Posts: 5814
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:24 am
Contact:

RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: Oshawott
what do you mean by major combat force? If you mean say 8 RDs (rifle divs) with 5 CV that gives approx attack power of 40. That's nowhere near enough to retreat 2 Pz divs without the 1:1 bonus.

charlie0311 you are right and you are wrong. You are right that 5x8=40 [;)]. You are wrong in the assumption that this is not enough to move a stack of 2 or 3 Pz divisions in clear terain. You have to remember that these are not static Pz divisions. They have usually traveled 10-15 hexes (or more) with 3-4 combats (or more). There fatigue is in the 80s, many of their elements are damaged. CV of those units is usually greatly reduced. But even that reduced number means nothing because of fatigue.

also don't forget the impact of mass. In effect all those less well trained Soviets in the 8 divisions (? 85-95,000 men) are shooting things at the 35,000 in the 3 German Pzr divisions. Things get even more interesting with a pre-attack bombing raid and the commitment of SUs.

So the Germans are weaker than the CV implies and you are a lot stronger. My logic is if you start out at 1-2 in terms of cv, mass etc will get you to 1-1 and then the +1. If you have this cycle set up, due to the vagaries of the combat system, especially if you've used your best commanders, its quite likely that the various modifications will bring this out at 3-1 not 2-1.

With the +1, this is near enough to a sure win (see I do agree with Pelton), without its a likely win and becomes more of a gamble as if it goes wrong you've wrecked some key formations and lost a lot of men. Even so, making aggressive use of the brief period in late July/August when the Germans have to be overextended (=fatigue), you have the 1941b oob, and you can ignore the south for replacements, is going to be key.

I realise you fully understand this is how you protect Leningrad/Moscow and set up divisions to convert to Gds but I think you are relying too much on the notional CV.

If I understand one of Morveal's posts, 1.08 will improve the accuracy of visible cv, which will stop a lot of this 'slaughter a chicken to check the entrails' mode of gameplay.

What he said :)

Also as Katza stated the better SHC players can make taking Leningrad and Moscow IMPOSSIBLE.

The average players lose Leningrad and the below average simply get rolled.

This is vs the better GHC players of which there are very few.
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
charlie0311
Posts: 940
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:15 am

RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by charlie0311 »

Hi guys, thx for responses.

1) I hope I can say this for the last time. I am (well) aware of ALL of the factors that influence combat results. I am using indicated combat values for a basis for discussion. I usually say "estimated" or just "est". Sometimes I say, etc, etc to mean all of the factors besides indicated CV. Much easier than typing every thing out.

2) OSH, OK to 40 CV moves two PZ div in your example. German just doesn't over wear his stuff and doesn't go beyond 50 or so on fatigue.

3) Pelton said "impossible" to take Leningrad. That's what I'm wondering about. Stop now and send, so browser doesn't bail. Then continue will another post entry.
charlie0311
Posts: 940
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:15 am

RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by charlie0311 »

ok, now L grad. Inf from AGN approaching Novgorod approx t7. Inf breaks Luga line PZs then go east to backdoor, inf forces Neva crossing, Pzs cross Neva. all that's left is mop up. An airbase in Lgrad and another in NLgrad getting nightly resupply would complicate matters.

So as sov, how do you stop this? Well, you could attack the supply lines but that's so easy to prevent why even discuss it. I say you have to attack the Pz spearheads and those spearheads could have 3Pz per hex and have done HQ build up before the attack is launched.

Finding all the best CV sov units in the sov OOB and sending them to Lgrad seems to get an average CV of about 6/unit including the arm/mot, "about" maybe a little higher. Nine sixes times 9 units gives 54 CV, three Pz CV about 60. That would work with the 1:1 bonus. Otherwise , no way.
User avatar
cpdeyoung
Posts: 5378
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:26 pm
Location: South Carolina, USA

RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by cpdeyoung »

@charlie0311,

If you compose your entries in a text editor, perhaps Notepad, and then paste them into the browser reply window you won't have to worry about the "bail". I hate to interrupt the discussion with a technical note, but I hate that you might lose your ideas too.

Chuck
User avatar
morvael
Posts: 11763
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:19 am
Location: Poland

RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by morvael »

ORIGINAL: charlie0311
Finding all the best CV sov units in the sov OOB and sending them to Lgrad seems to get an average CV of about 6/unit including the arm/mot, "about" maybe a little higher. Nine sixes times 9 units gives 54 CV, three Pz CV about 60. That would work without the 1:1 bonus. Otherwise , no way.

Do not look at the on-counter CV, they are misleading. Just try to play solo and setup some attacks and see when you start to win. The key is good leader and then you can easily win with attacking CV10 vs defending CV15.
charlie0311
Posts: 940
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:15 am

RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by charlie0311 »

with or without 1;1 bonus?
User avatar
loki100
Posts: 11699
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:38 pm
Location: Utlima Thule

RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

ok, now L grad. Inf from AGN approaching Novgorod approx t7. Inf breaks Luga line PZs then go east to backdoor, inf forces Neva crossing, Pzs cross Neva. all that's left is mop up. An airbase in Lgrad and another in NLgrad getting nightly resupply would complicate matters.

So as sov, how do you stop this? Well, you could attack the supply lines but that's so easy to prevent why even discuss it. I say you have to attack the Pz spearheads and those spearheads could have 3Pz per hex and have done HQ build up before the attack is launched.

Finding all the best CV sov units in the sov OOB and sending them to Lgrad seems to get an average CV of about 6/unit including the arm/mot, "about" maybe a little higher. Nine sixes times 9 units gives 54 CV, three Pz CV about 60. That would work with the 1:1 bonus. Otherwise , no way.

Leningrad, if a German player really wants it, they will get it. The flaw is the map rendering where the Neva leaves Lake Ladoga, that should be marsh.

So if they add on a Pzr Corps to AGN, stack 18 Army with SUs, they have a good chance. But of course, if, as is standard, another Pzr Corps has been added to AGS then their centre is weakened. So their strategic gamble is that they clear you out of Leningrad in time for the redeployed units to make a difference near Moscow (or they have given up on making serious progress to Moscow in 1941). If you spot this then as the Soviet you are of course free to deploy where they are committed ... and so on.

If they send say the historic AGN, I think you can stall them, but you need to make it a priority for the Soviets. First as above, put two decent armies on the Luga and prioritise for replacements. Have another army dig in those hills to the south of Leningrad and of course fortify the line of the Volkhov.

What you want to do is to build a cats cradle, that will really slow them and if you are strong enough mean they need to divert formations for flank protection. You can often stall them just south of the final Ladoga port by the time mud hits.

But this exercise will cost you 4-5 armies (1 in Leningrad, 2 on the Luga, 2 digging in the rear) that you really need somewhere else.

This is one reason why the more gamey of players like to strip the Ukraine of Soviet units in order to achieve this. As if the nature of these stunts, it has in turn set off the search for even more outre variants of the physically impossible Lvov pocket.

A good test is the Road to Leningrad - that sees more Soviet units in play than most players do in the GC but of course no where near what you can if you move SW Front up there. I find I can hold the final port in that scenario, certainly long enough that the intrinsic supply in Leningrad will stop it falling. In a campaign that is the start of mud, and its no great help to the Germans if they clear Leningrad in the immediate pre-blizzard period.
User avatar
loki100
Posts: 11699
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:38 pm
Location: Utlima Thule

RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

with or without 1;1 bonus?

look at the combat results put up in most AARs, the defenders cv often stays static, maybe increases 50%, if the Soviets are attacking the increase can be double, sometimes treble.

that is mostly the impact of good commanders, the bias to the attacking side and the ability to bring lots of weapons to play.

Morvael is right, play some right hand-left hand, it is very informative.
charlie0311
Posts: 940
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:15 am

RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by charlie0311 »

cpd,

thx for the suggestion, I'm a REALLY bad computer moron, maybe you could post how to directions for using notepad in the tech section. I've got windows 8.1
carlkay58
Posts: 8770
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:30 pm

RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by carlkay58 »

Actually the entire Leningrad map area is too light on terrain. The WitW map has a better representation of the area. Also notable in the WitE map is the number of railroads in the area to the east that did not exist until 43 or 44. They were built during the war by the Soviets to improve the supply situation in the area to support relieving the Leningrad pocket. As a matter of fact, the main railroad that goes directly east from Leningrad area was started construction in May, 1941 and was not completed until late August/early September 1941. This change in RR coverage will make the right hook or back door almost impossible - especially when you shift to the WitW supply situation.
User avatar
morvael
Posts: 11763
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:19 am
Location: Poland

RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by morvael »

Then WitE 2.0 must be able to handle RR built during the war...
User avatar
Flaviusx
Posts: 7732
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:55 pm
Location: Southern California

RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by Flaviusx »

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

ok, now L grad. Inf from AGN approaching Novgorod approx t7. Inf breaks Luga line PZs then go east to backdoor, inf forces Neva crossing, Pzs cross Neva. all that's left is mop up. An airbase in Lgrad and another in NLgrad getting nightly resupply would complicate matters.

So as sov, how do you stop this? Well, you could attack the supply lines but that's so easy to prevent why even discuss it. I say you have to attack the Pz spearheads and those spearheads could have 3Pz per hex and have done HQ build up before the attack is launched.

Finding all the best CV sov units in the sov OOB and sending them to Lgrad seems to get an average CV of about 6/unit including the arm/mot, "about" maybe a little higher. Nine sixes times 9 units gives 54 CV, three Pz CV about 60. That would work with the 1:1 bonus. Otherwise , no way.

Leningrad, if a German player really wants it, they will get it. The flaw is the map rendering where the Neva leaves Lake Ladoga, that should be marsh.

I'm not so sure of this anymore. If the Soviet commits heavily to the north from the getgo and makes it a point to build the Great Wall of Russia, the Axis may not have an answer for this.
WitE Alpha Tester
User avatar
morvael
Posts: 11763
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:19 am
Location: Poland

RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by morvael »

I wanted to add marsh there for 1.08 but there is no one who could update the map graphics.
User avatar
Peltonx
Posts: 5814
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:24 am
Contact:

RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

ok, now L grad. Inf from AGN approaching Novgorod approx t7. Inf breaks Luga line PZs then go east to backdoor, inf forces Neva crossing, Pzs cross Neva. all that's left is mop up. An airbase in Lgrad and another in NLgrad getting nightly resupply would complicate matters.

So as sov, how do you stop this? Well, you could attack the supply lines but that's so easy to prevent why even discuss it. I say you have to attack the Pz spearheads and those spearheads could have 3Pz per hex and have done HQ build up before the attack is launched.

Finding all the best CV sov units in the sov OOB and sending them to Lgrad seems to get an average CV of about 6/unit including the arm/mot, "about" maybe a little higher. Nine sixes times 9 units gives 54 CV, three Pz CV about 60. That would work with the 1:1 bonus. Otherwise , no way.

Leningrad, if a German player really wants it, they will get it. The flaw is the map rendering where the Neva leaves Lake Ladoga, that should be marsh.

So if they add on a Pzr Corps to AGN, stack 18 Army with SUs, they have a good chance. But of course, if, as is standard, another Pzr Corps has been added to AGS then their centre is weakened. So their strategic gamble is that they clear you out of Leningrad in time for the redeployed units to make a difference near Moscow (or they have given up on making serious progress to Moscow in 1941). If you spot this then as the Soviet you are of course free to deploy where they are committed ... and so on.

If they send say the historic AGN, I think you can stall them, but you need to make it a priority for the Soviets. First as above, put two decent armies on the Luga and prioritise for replacements. Have another army dig in those hills to the south of Leningrad and of course fortify the line of the Volkhov.

What you want to do is to build a cats cradle, that will really slow them and if you are strong enough mean they need to divert formations for flank protection. You can often stall them just south of the final Ladoga port by the time mud hits.

But this exercise will cost you 4-5 armies (1 in Leningrad, 2 on the Luga, 2 digging in the rear) that you really need somewhere else.

This is one reason why the more gamey of players like to strip the Ukraine of Soviet units in order to achieve this. As if the nature of these stunts, it has in turn set off the search for even more outre variants of the physically impossible Lvov pocket.

A good test is the Road to Leningrad - that sees more Soviet units in play than most players do in the GC but of course no where near what you can if you move SW Front up there. I find I can hold the final port in that scenario, certainly long enough that the intrinsic supply in Leningrad will stop it falling. In a campaign that is the start of mud, and its no great help to the Germans if they clear Leningrad in the immediate pre-blizzard period.

We need to stick to facts not fairytales

Fact : Bomazz/MT/Flaviusx/Katza/Sapper to name just a few have NEVER lost a game as SHC-NEVER. Not even close to historical.

many have NEVER lost Leningrad. The German offensive was over between turns 7-10. Its so easy to game the system because of 1v1=2v1 and all the games before .13 were a complete disaster because of the swapping bugs. WHICH SHOULD HAVE BEEN FOUND BEFORE THE GAME WAS RELEASED NOT SEVERAL YRS AFTER.

I am completely fine with SHC winning but this Middle Earth feel of the game was a joke and I am being nice.

Sure newbie's have a great time fighting newbies, but the guys that know the systems GHC and SHC the game is boring to say the least on SHC side.

Once 1v1=2v1 has been removed then yes Loki Leningrad can be taken with a little luck vs even the best SHC players and draws will be possible because 90% of the swapping bugs have been killed. When GHC OOB goes from 3.6 million to 3.1 million in 10 turns and there was little fighting something was horribly wrong - again facts go read this AAR so your not ignorant of how the game was working.

tm.asp?m=2792361

It still is kind of amazing how people say things with zero to back them up-when the forums are littered with data.
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
User avatar
Flaviusx
Posts: 7732
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:55 pm
Location: Southern California

RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by Flaviusx »

I've lost Leningrad. But I've also kept it. About 50/50. Significantly the games where I lost it are older ones and over time I got better at holding on to it.
WitE Alpha Tester
User avatar
Michael T
Posts: 4445
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:35 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia.

RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by Michael T »

I lost Leningrad once in the early days. Never again since. And not once have I even felt threatened in a game as Soviet. And the game now is even more pro Soviet than back in those days. There are high hopes for 1.08 to deliver an improved situation. IMO the Iron Wall is THE most important thing to squash.
User avatar
morvael
Posts: 11763
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:19 am
Location: Poland

RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by morvael »

It will be still possible to protect key, small areas with good forts (and the forts will be even better in effect), but it will be harder to get level 3 everywhere with bazillion of fort units. Plus there will be ability to tone down fort impact on CV using game settings for those that are really craving for maneuver warfare. But it's a double edged sword - whatever helps Axis in '41 and '42, helps Soviet in '43+.
Post Reply

Return to “Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series”