more on refueling/RTB.. my biggest greavance

[magi]

there are a number of issues on Refueling..RTB/winchester/bingo.... that cause an aggravating amount of micromanagement.....

*aircraft.. directing themselves to refueling assets by default when Bingo/Winchester.. when they have more than enough fuel to RTB.... even when home base is closer... friendly aircraft also do this...
*aircraft.. chasing refueling assets that are bingo... even till they fall out of the sky...
*aircraft.. all lining up on one refuelers when others are in near proximity...


i believe.. when a platform is bingo/winchester.. by default it should RTB to home base... unless otherwise ordered..
i believe.. there should be some self preservation protocol on less than bingo... ie.. the unit will by default go to the nearest friendly source of fuel.. weather base or refueling asset...
i believe.. aircraft with critical needs should have priority... like the same as landing...
i believe.. they should standoff a couples of miles after refueling and wait for orders..

i would really like to see a shortcut for refueling/resupply.. whereby you highlight the unit with needs and the source.. it will direct itself to the source.. satisfy its needs.. then stand off and loiter....

this is such a marvel of a simulator... you guys did good...

i would really like to see more logistics involvement incorporated in the future.... that would be cool... but thats another thread....

[Dannyp19]

These are known issues and I'm sure they are working on a solution. ATA refueling is a very complicated thing IRL and command is no different.

A lot of frustration can be user related. Keeping the proper rotation of tanker assets, distance to orbit, # of birds per tanker, etc. Proper planning can help, plus using the Doctrine for only the assets that need refueling on. If they have plenty of fuel to make it home after Winchester, make sure they have the doctrine set to no.

For now micromanaging is the only way to keep things from going sideways.

For example. When playing "Goodnight Irene" I set up a rotating tanker orbit. After a certain event a lot of my MPA's and ASuW assets needed a drink, my tanker went low before it could gas them all and it's replacement was not on station. Needless to say I lost some birds.

[magi]

"For now micromanaging is the only way to keep things from going sideways."

OK Danny... thats good.. what you say is all i need to know... for now....

thank you.....

[Dimitris]

Hello,

ORIGINAL: magi

there are a number of issues on Refueling..RTB/winchester/bingo.... that cause an aggravating amount of micromanagement.....

*aircraft.. directing themselves to refueling assets by default when Bingo/Winchester.. when they have more than enough fuel to RTB.... even when home base is closer... friendly aircraft also do this...
*aircraft.. chasing refueling assets that are bingo... even till they fall out of the sky...
*aircraft.. all lining up on one refuelers when others are in near proximity...

Could you please post a representative save for each of these issues? It would help us track down the root causes and resolve them as appropriate.

Thanks!

[jarraya]

Hi Sunburn,
Attached is my save showing one of the issues I have on refueling/RTB and mentioned in the post above.
I have a group of F-18s to the South which have gone RTB. I order these planes to turn and take on the oncoming fighters, knowing that I have some tankers further North.
First I select NO for "use Refuel/UNREP". Then I "U" Unassign them from their current status "RTB" and give them orders to turn, which they do for a few seconds, and then they go right back to RTB. If Use Refuel is Yes, they immediately go to try to refuel. Very frustrating.
Hope this save helps.
Jorge

[mikmykWS]

Thanks Jorge. I've added this to our list of issues to look at.

Mike

[jarraya]

Mike,

Just as a thought on this - the old Harpoon used to have a pop-up "Aircraft x has reached Bingo fuel, do you want to RTB?".

Perhaps something like that or an ROE switch with "Auto RTB when Bingo" would solve some of these issues?.

Jorge

[Dimitris]

ORIGINAL: jarraya
Mike,

Just as a thought on this - the old Harpoon used to have a pop-up "Aircraft x has reached Bingo fuel, do you want to RTB?".

Perhaps something like that or an ROE switch with "Auto RTB when Bingo" would solve some of these issues?.

Jorge

Aircraft automatically head back home or (if possible) reach out for a tanker when they hit Bingo, so that behavior is already built-in.

This is really a combination of subtle bugs/flaws (not the same thing!) on AI and refueling mechanics, and we are solving them one by one.

Thanks for the save BTW!

[Dimitris]

ORIGINAL: jarraya
Hi Sunburn,
Attached is my save showing one of the issues I have on refueling/RTB and mentioned in the post above.
I have a group of F-18s to the South which have gone RTB. I order these planes to turn and take on the oncoming fighters, knowing that I have some tankers further North.
First I select NO for "use Refuel/UNREP". Then I "U" Unassign them from their current status "RTB" and give them orders to turn, which they do for a few seconds, and then they go right back to RTB. If Use Refuel is Yes, they immediately go to try to refuel. Very frustrating.
Hope this save helps.
Jorge

Looking at this now, using B557.

I'm not sure what the problematic behavior is. You have two tankers near the "front line", both of them have been depleted, one is returning to base and the other will soon follow. Your fighters are checking their bingo status, calculating not against the tankers (which are now effectively as good as gone) but against their assigned bases. They see that they are at the edge of their fuel and are retreating. They are doing this so that they won't fall from the sky (and even so it's not a guarantee). So what exactly is wrong?

[jarraya]

Hi Sunburn,
Thanks for looking.
The point is that I would like my planes to stay in the air despite being at bingo fuel. I know that I will be able to get a tanker in the air to meet them on the way home, so I want to order to attack the SAG to the south, but they just turn and RTB.
I can understand the standard behaviour to be RTB when Bingo, but I think the commander should have the choice to send his planes on the missiong even if they are Bingo (always knowing a tanker will be in the air to meet them on the way back).

Jorge

[jarraya]

Looking at this now, using B557.

I'm not sure what the problematic behavior is. You have two tankers near the "front line", both of them have been depleted, one is returning to base and the other will soon follow. Your fighters are checking their bingo status, calculating not against the tankers (which are now effectively as good as gone) but against their assigned bases. They see that they are at the edge of their fuel and are retreating. They are doing this so that they won't fall from the sky (and even so it's not a guarantee). So what exactly is wrong?

Hi Sunburn,
Thanks for looking.
The point is that I would like my planes to stay in the air despite being at bingo fuel. I know that I will be able to get a tanker in the air to meet them on the way home, so I want to order to attack the SAG to the south, but they just turn and RTB.
I can understand the standard behaviour to be RTB when Bingo, but I think the commander should have the choice to send his planes on the missiong even if they are Bingo (always knowing a tanker will be in the air to meet them on the way back).

Jorge

[jarraya]

Sorry to be annoying, just don't want this one to be missed.

[mikmykWS]

We just spent ages making sure planes don't crash due to bingo and a million issues surrounding it and now you want an option to keep them up? We've got nothing but positive feedback on these changes.

This is not a bug. Sorry[:)]

Mike

[jarraya]

Mike,
I'm hoping that I didn't explain myself correctly before my request is dismissed.
My intent is not to let planes run out of fuel, of course, and I would hopefully always have a chance to let my planes refuel. However, the scenario I think of is a plane that has been on a AAW patrol protecting an HVT for a while. Suddenly contacts appear and the plane heads towards them. Suddenly, the plane is bingo fuel. However, the air commander knows that, so he's already put a tanker in the air to meet the plane on the way back home.

Now, under the current programming, my plane goes RTB, ignoring the contacts which are now closing behind him. He can't even turn around to shoot his missiles. He ignores all commands and goes RTB, leaving the HVT helpless.

I accept the programming of this stuff might be a pain, so if you say it won't be done I'll leave it, of course. But ideally, the planes should be told to ignore e bingo fuel and RTB order and prosecute the contact. Then, turn and refuel.

I hope I've been clearer. Happy with whatever you think, but it would be good to hear from others.

Thanks again for a great game!

Jorge

[mikmykWS]

Hi Jorge

If we were dismissing this we never would have replied, correct?

Definitely understand the issue but we can't undo a bunch of code for this one specific case. I think we do agree that losing your HVU is probably too steep of a price to pay and there should be a better out. However we had way to many people asking for bingo and refueling fixes so we're a little hesitant to make a change that could impact that. It was too big and we're back on development schedule and have to work on some other stuff first. This will remain on our list though and we'll address when we can get to it.

Mike