Just a qucik picture of Task Force 58.

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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RE: Just a qucik picture of Task Force 58.

Post by wdolson »

It's one thing to intellectually understand something, it's another to grok it.

What was anchored at Ulithi and shown in this picture and others was pretty much the main battle fleet, but it was only a small portion of the USN's assets who also had a significant presence doing convoy escort in the Atlantic, had ships undergoing refit and repair, more ships working up for commissioning, ships scattered around the Pacific here and there, a large submarine fleet, plus a massive amphibious navy spread across two theaters.

The US was known for its mass manufacturing techniques, but the wizards of industry outdid themselves. If you read about the shipyards Henry Kaiser built and how fast he was able to crank out ships, it's amazing. Many US ships were essentially built on production lines.

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RE: Just a qucik picture of Task Force 58.

Post by Amoral »

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Certainly makes you truly wonder and scratch your head at Japan's starting the war doesn't it?

Japan's war plan had the US losing to AV in 1943, before this armada could be built.

I wonder how many of the ships pictured existed in 1941.
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RE: Just a qucik picture of Task Force 58.

Post by ByronBond »

To me, what is even more impressive is that Ulithi (and I also believe that's where this was taken) is 6,200 standard miles from San Francisco, and every day those ships were in port the men got mail, fresh vegetables, spare parts, fuel oil, and even ice cream. Even more remarkable than the ability to *build* those ships was the ability to maintain and supply them that far forward for so long.
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RE: Just a qucik picture of Task Force 58.

Post by Symon »

ORIGINAL: Amoral
Japan's war plan had the US losing to AV in 1943, before this armada could be built.
I wonder how many of the ships pictured existed in 1941.
Not many admittedly, but from the 1920s, under WP-Orange, the USN recognized the need for fleet support ships. These were built up to the standards existing at the time. The USN had a fleet train, in being, Japan did not.

When the Pacific campaign began, the USN recognized the need for auxiliary vessels, and built them. Japan did not. The USN recognized the need for an administrative fleet HQ to manage these vessels. Japan did not. The USN had an industrial infrastructure that could populate its auxiliary ship requirements. Japan did not.

Even at the beginning of the war, the USN had a significant advantage in fleet support vessels. Once one gets to Ulithi, one realizes just how far out of their league the Japanese really were.
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RE: Just a qucik picture of Task Force 58.

Post by wdolson »

North America is a natural fortress and American war planning from the beginning of the 20th century took into account that any fighting the US was going to do was going to involve moving a lot of stuff somewhere and maintaining a war footing with troops a long ways from home. So the US got good at logistics which involves a lot of auxiliary ships.

Japan and Germany both only planned for short wars. Historically when one power did a smash and grab attack on another, the invaded power usually folded and let the attacking power have the territory until the next war. I have a book with a series of maps about 40 years apart showing Eastern Europe over a couple of hundred years. The borders were unrecognizable from one map to the next. Everybody was grabbing everyone else's territory every few years.

Using past as prologue, the Axis powers figured WW II would play out like a lot of other wars. They would expand their territories, the Allies would grumble, but let them be. In the view of the planners WW I happened because the armies moved too slowly and that was solved now.

All the weapons of WW II as well as the advances in mass production changed that calculus forever, but it wasn't obvious at the start. Less so to the Axis than to the Allies who had embraced mass production more thoroughly than the Axis powers. There is an interesting article in the latest World War II magazine that compares how the US, USSR, and Germany built tanks. The US and USSR standardized on a few basic models and produced as many of them as they could as fast as they could. The Germans kept trying to finesse the perfect tank with lots of craftsmen hand tooling everything until mid-1944 when it was too late.

Similar comparisons could be made between other industries too.

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RE: Just a qucik picture of Task Force 58.

Post by richlove »

To add to wdolson's comments, John Parshall (yes, that one) gave a great talk @ the WW 2 museum on how the various countries strategized their tank production: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6xLMUifbxQ - highly recommended.
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RE: Just a qucik picture of Task Force 58.

Post by Symon »

Wish it was as complex as that, Bill, but it wasn’t. After all the conquests, Germany had roughly 2.7x the economic warmaking potential as the USSR (in all but oil/fuel). Yet the USSR produced 2+x the warmaking materials as Germany (small arms, mortars, arty, tanks, assault guns, airplanes: they made almost as many indigenous trucks but got lots more from lend-lease). So wha hoppen?

Simple example:
In Germany, 16% of the total automotive industry output was still directed to commercial automobiles and delivery vehicles; because some companies pissed off some Nazi bigwig and couldn’t get a Wehrmacht contract. The Polish automotive industry was ignored wholesale and mostly abandoned, except for light truck and farm implement manufacture. Skoda was kept running, but the rest of the Czech automotive industry was ignored and shut down. The Danish automotive industry was completely shut down: they were required to buy from Germany.

The French automotive industry was utterly ignored. They were not even allowed to make replacements or parts for French mechanized items taken into the Wehrmacht. In 1944, the French were making commercial automobiles, taxicabs, limousines, light trucks, busses, and farm implements, and not for the Wehrmacht. Germany could have motorized/mechanized to the same extent as the US, but failed to use over 50% of their automotive industry assets.

It’s not as complex as trying to build the perfect tank; it’s nothing but a simple exposition of a pack of arrogant, brainless, buttheads that keep shoving their heads farther and farther up their butts, until one finally pushes his head out the other end and says “Oohhh I can see it all now !! But why is everything brown?”

Sorry. I said butt. I should be spanked.
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RE: Just a qucik picture of Task Force 58.

Post by wdolson »

ORIGINAL: Symon

Wish it was as complex as that, Bill, but it wasn’t. After all the conquests, Germany had roughly 2.7x the economic warmaking potential as the USSR (in all but oil/fuel). Yet the USSR produced 2+x the warmaking materials as Germany (small arms, mortars, arty, tanks, assault guns, airplanes: they made almost as many indigenous trucks but got lots more from lend-lease). So wha hoppen?

Simple example:
In Germany, 16% of the total automotive industry output was still directed to commercial automobiles and delivery vehicles; because some companies pissed off some Nazi bigwig and couldn’t get a Wehrmacht contract. The Polish automotive industry was ignored wholesale and mostly abandoned, except for light truck and farm implement manufacture. Skoda was kept running, but the rest of the Czech automotive industry was ignored and shut down. The Danish automotive industry was completely shut down: they were required to buy from Germany.

The French automotive industry was utterly ignored. They were not even allowed to make replacements or parts for French mechanized items taken into the Wehrmacht. In 1944, the French were making commercial automobiles, taxicabs, limousines, light trucks, busses, and farm implements, and not for the Wehrmacht. Germany could have motorized/mechanized to the same extent as the US, but failed to use over 50% of their automotive industry assets.

It’s not as complex as trying to build the perfect tank; it’s nothing but a simple exposition of a pack of arrogant, brainless, buttheads that keep shoving their heads farther and farther up their butts, until one finally pushes his head out the other end and says “Oohhh I can see it all now !! But why is everything brown?”

Sorry. I said butt. I should be spanked.

Mismanagement of what they had was a factor, but I think you should read the article. It (and I) agree with you more than you think.

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Barb
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RE: Just a qucik picture of Task Force 58.

Post by Barb »

Not so easy to keep that many different types of vehicles in operation - All those German and captured equipment. Repair workshops would have to had 50 types of every single spare part on hand to keep them running.

Retooling factories to standardize military vehicles would take time and machinery, the Germans did not have - it would have to be produced first.

Also given the German industry was actually starting to "stand down" because of the expected quick victory in the 1942, why would one devote such tremendous effort to turn the industry around? And in 1943 it could be already too late...

Another question is whether all those hypothetical vehicles would have enough fuel to run... or would they just sit idly at factory grounds because of lack of fuel...
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RE: Just a qucik picture of Task Force 58.

Post by Endy »

EDIT: I just realized I misunderstood the quote I replied to and my entire post does not make any sense in the context of the discussion... I feel stupid now... Apologies to all involved.
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RE: Just a qucik picture of Task Force 58.

Post by leehunt27@bloomberg.net »

That picture is amazing... apparently there was grumbling after the war that the Navy knew it was building far more ships than the US even had sailors for, while the Army was always scraping to find frontline infantry
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RE: Just a qucik picture of Task Force 58.

Post by Amoral »

ORIGINAL: Symon

Wish it was as complex as that, Bill, but it wasn’t. After all the conquests, Germany had roughly 2.7x the economic warmaking potential as the USSR (in all but oil/fuel). Yet the USSR produced 2+x the warmaking materials as Germany (small arms, mortars, arty, tanks, assault guns, airplanes: they made almost as many indigenous trucks but got lots more from lend-lease). So wha hoppen?

Simple example:
In Germany, 16% of the total automotive industry output was still directed to commercial automobiles and delivery vehicles; because some companies pissed off some Nazi bigwig and couldn’t get a Wehrmacht contract. The Polish automotive industry was ignored wholesale and mostly abandoned, except for light truck and farm implement manufacture. Skoda was kept running, but the rest of the Czech automotive industry was ignored and shut down. The Danish automotive industry was completely shut down: they were required to buy from Germany.

The French automotive industry was utterly ignored. They were not even allowed to make replacements or parts for French mechanized items taken into the Wehrmacht. In 1944, the French were making commercial automobiles, taxicabs, limousines, light trucks, busses, and farm implements, and not for the Wehrmacht. Germany could have motorized/mechanized to the same extent as the US, but failed to use over 50% of their automotive industry assets.

It’s not as complex as trying to build the perfect tank; it’s nothing but a simple exposition of a pack of arrogant, brainless, buttheads that keep shoving their heads farther and farther up their butts, until one finally pushes his head out the other end and says “Oohhh I can see it all now !! But why is everything brown?”

Sorry. I said butt. I should be spanked.

Maybe they did not ignore the captured automotive industry because they were buttheads. Maybe it was because someone did some math and said "Hey, even if we stick with horses we're gonna be out of fuel in 1944".

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