This game still unplayable?

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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This game still unplayable?

Post by Peltonx »

All things being equal this game still historically based on Middle Earth history and not based on WW II?

1. WW 1 on the Eastern Front by early 42.
2. German player can do better by simply digging in during 41 then attacking and yes I proven this more then once.

A WW II game that rewards WW I tactics is simply unplayable as watching paint dry is no ones idea of having fun when playing a game.

Sure any vet of the game can make a newbie look bad, a games real test is when equal players play each other.

We have seen time and again all things being equal the SHC side has Middle Earth powers Gandalf would have loved to had vs The Horde from Mordor.



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RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by Peltonx »

41-45 Sudden Death Server game only.

non - random weather
HQ Lock
Full FoW
Reduced Blizzard Effects

No HQ and air field spam, 1 bombing attack per turn max.

To retain the threat of paratroop operations, but to bring this within the plausible in terms of Soviet capacity, no drops before November 1941. One a month up to June 1942 and then unlimited. However, you can 'save' drops, so if you don't use one, it can be used in the next month.

No naval invasions before November 1941, none outside the 1939 Soviet borders before January 1943 In addition if Sevastopol is either isolated, or in German hands, none west of the Crimea – which reflects the scope for air/naval interdiction not really reflected in the game.

April 1942
German Victory if victory points are >=242
Soviet Victory if victory points are <=191
April 1943
German Victory if victory points are >=255
Soviet Victory if victory points are <=188
April 1944
German Victory if victory points are >=210
Soviet Victory if victory points are <=150

HVY: 236
AP: 370
Res:136
Man Power: 2664
Fuel: 149

Com Cap page 145
start 4/42 4/43 4/44
Corp 8 9 10 11
Army 24 27 30 33
Group 96 108 120 132



Winter Weather.

Clear turns 1 - 17
Mud turns 18 - 21
Snow 22 - 24
Blizzard 25 - 37 30 Jan 1 42
Snow 38 - 41
MUD 42 - 46
Clear 47
Mud 48
Clear 49
Mud 50 - 51
Clear 52
Mud 53
Clear 54 - 69
Mud 70 –73
Snow 74 - 76
Blizzard 77 - 89 Dec 42
Snow 90 - 93
Mud 94 - 99
Clear 100
Mud 101
Clear 102 - 103
Mud 104
Clear 105 - 121
Mud 122 - g


June 22 summer 1944

Mud oct 12 nov 2nd 4 turns

Nov 9th snow.















Air Power Settings.

% Required to fly = 0%
Interception should be 0=0
All Support 125% and escort setting at 125%
All intercept set to 160%
Move JU87 into fighter bases.
Bombers into the remaining bases.
Transports in a single airbase. 1 in north and 1 in south. The 1 in AGC move to AGS

Turn ground support off at end of your turn.

Unit set-ups.
Set ToE of HQ’s and Airbases to 93%,
ToE of AA, Art, Stug, pioneers, and MG to 53%
ToE of Con and FZ’s to 63%.
Set all infantry ToE to 85%. 85+ morale to 100%
PZ, MoT and Mech to 85%.

RR;
One north
One to land bridge
One to Minsk
Two Rumanian then split to Kiev or crossing.


1. Change OKH leadership
2. Turn one do all border attacks first.
3. Bomb front line air bases after all ground units have attacked/moved.
4. Over run airbases then bomb whatever left.
5.






Opening Offensives AGN.

Extra RR unit help Northern RR unit the first 2 turns, then return to AGC and build to land bridge.

AGN:

Basically infantry clear the front.

36th 54-40 move HQ’s
Add SU’s to 6th and 1st move to 58-34 air attack city then turn on GS- HA
36th HA 22nd divisions if needed it will route.
3rd mech 54-40 east to 62-38 then cross
8th 54-40 then to 64-40
Do air drops



AGN: Right hook is 100% possible still and probably best idea.

1. Get across the Pskov by turn 3. Turn 2 is the best.
2. HQ up on turn 4.
3. Infantry punch through and panzers cut rails.
4. Clear the rail line on the Daugava river to Vitebsk by turn 5.
5. 9th Army needs a solid front below Pskov to Vitebsk by turn 5
6. Should be across the Luga by turn 5.
7. Then pound it out to Leningrad.
8. Once Leningrad is taken pull the panzers to AGC.
9. Fins man 6 hexes and send rest back to homeland.
10. Model run I Corp, should be 4 90+ morale units
11. Move I Corp into 4th PG during Blizzard
12. Move II Corp into 1st PG during Blizzard.













Opening Offensives AGC

1. RR unit must go east to Minsk, cross river and
2. 2th Army needs to be reinforced and link with 9th Army from AGN
3. 2nd and 3rd Panzer group get to land bridge by turn 3. Then keep pushing east with 2nd and 4th Armys.
4. Start grinding towards Moscow. At some point asap a southern push has to be made on Tula. Hopefully with help from the panzer Corps from AGN and AGS.

AGC North side:

VI Corp will attack Kaunas
20th MD 61-40 60-39 61-39 62-38
20th PD 62-43 64-42
7th PD 65-42
19th PD 61-51 63-53 66-54 end 66-55
18th PD 60-53 63-54
12th PD 65-57 66-58
18th PD 60-53 63-54
12th PD 64-58
288 to 56-55?


AGC south side:

23rd clear 48-64 O= occupy
7th clear 49-65 O
258th clear 50-65 O
268th to 51-66
292th to 51-69
263th to 51-67
112th, 293 to 50-67
137 to 51-67 then all 4 divisions DA Breast.
78 to53-64
17 51-74
XII 51-73 DA then block 52-74+51-74
134 54-67
252 54-65 HA
131 55-66 ha
167 55-66 ha
29 MD 56-65 then 60-62 ha MP’s left over to block where needed after PZ divs move.
18 PD 56-61 then 61-60 then assault east
17 PD finish up pushing east.










Opening Offensives AGS.

AGS:
Get FBD-1 on a train and get to border.
267 55-74
62+56 54-74 DA
255 55-75 DA
56 53-74
100 JG 50-77 DA
296+97 JG 51-77 DA
299+99 JG 51-78
101 52-78
ADD 2 POINEERS TO 1ST MT
1ST MT+68+24 51-79 24TH TO 52-80
71 53-80
ADD MG + ONE OTHER TO 1ST CAV
1ST CAV 57-76 GD 56-76
262 53-81
75 51-81
DR + 10TH PZ ADD POINEERS ECT
57-82 BLOCKING AROUND 62-82/ 61-83
Rest of infantry fill in holes.
16th 57-79 ect
10th 4th 3rd close extended pocket
11th to 60-93
Put in 13th in 3rd Corp now.
13th 62-86 62-87
14th 62-90 62-91


AGS main objective is release of AGA


1. Spearhead on turn 2 must be south of Proskurov. RR units coming from Romania to Vinnitsa.
2. Move the FBD-1 south on turn 1. Both FBD team up until they cross Dnepr.
3. 2. Get across the Dnepr river by turn 4 or 5. Clear as much land as possible to the river before turn 5.
4. Must have Stalino locked down by turn 7-10. ASAP send Panzers to AGC to finish off Moscow. At least 6 divisions.
5. 7th Army will link with 4th Army from AGC, 6th Army will follow 1st PG.
6. One Corp from 11th Army will clear Odessa then hold Crimea. MT units from Romanian and Hungary will help.
7. Romanian and Hungarian units will garrison all city’s in south, send any German Security Divisions north.






Winter Defenses:

Put all air units into RESERVE.

Pull as many high morale infantry units off line as possible.

Concentrate all your fighters into just a handful of airbases; you can do this by pulling them into reserve, then putting them back. Change out FB’s for fighters.

Transfer almost all your airbases back to Germany; there is no sense having them sit outside and accumulate attrition losses.

Stack every city and urban to the top with units, either reserves or HQ. Move Army group HQs back to a safe town in the rear.


For cities, 2 units are SAFE.
For URBAN, 3 units are SAFE
For Towns, there is a die-roll of 1 to 4, and that's compared to size of town.
Level-4 town can hold 1 unit safely 100%
Level-3and 75%
Level-2 50%
Level-1 25%

I would stack every city and urban to the top with units, either reserves or HQ. Move Army group HQs back to a safe town in the rear.

Oka north retreat 1 hex per turn. Oka south 2 per turn.
















C&C
int
OKH 9
AG 8
Corp 7


Defending late 42 –43

Spend most AP’s on FZs
AP’s spent on moving 9th to AGN, 1 PG from AGC to AGS and 4th PZ to AGA.


During 42 about 30 Corp?, airbases and air HQ’s need to be disbanded or 250,000 men. Disband all bombers and upgrade to fighter bombers.

Fins have 9 divisions and 4 regiments. Fins will defend 3 hexes far north and 6 by Leningrad. 2 Corp of 10 divisions will be under Finnish Army defending north of Lake Ilmen. Frontage in south 9-11 hexes.

AGN : 18th, 16th and 9th 27 hex frontage. 3 infantry in front and one split in 2nd line in reserve. 40 infantry divisions. 3 panzers

AGC: 1 PG, 2nd and 4th 27 hex frontage. 3 infantry in front and one split in 2nd row, PG will have 1 Corp of Panzers as Army reserves. 40 infantry divisions. 3 panzers

AGS: 6th,17th and 1 PG plus 1st+4th PG’s until AGA is released. 3 infantry in front and one split in 2nd line 27 hex frontage. 40 infantry divisions. 3 panzers.

Crimea: 6 divisions plus minors 3 Huns and 6 Rumanians.

136 infantry divisions and 9 panzer divisions.

AGA: 1st and 4th PG’s will be Eastern Front reserves. 9 panzer divisions each or 18 Panzer divisions. These units will be used to try and pocket Russian divisions along the front in weak spots.

12 LW divisions will go under Corps/OKH as diggers.

2 LW Corp and 2 Corp from front. 3 LW divisions per Corp. 36 hex frontage.

Rum 20 inf divisions, 6 Cav, 1 Tank, 4 MT
Huns 8 inf, 1 MT, 1 cav and 2 armor.

Spend everything on FZ’s

AP’s spent on moving 9th to AGN, 1 PG from AGC to AGS and 4th PZ to AGA.
150 to 300 AP’s. Deleting 50ish units. 350ish ap 1 yr = 2600.





Historical losses on Eastern front, only includes KIA,MIA,WIA

——————German——————-Russian————Ratio

1941
3rd—————551,000——————2,795,000———-5 to 1
4th—————280,000——————1,598,000———-5.7to 1
1942
1st—————280,000——————1,686,000———-6 to 1
2nd—————220,000——————1,395,000———-6.3 to 1
3rd—————383,000——————2,371,000———-6 to 1
4th—————177,000——————1,281,000———-7.2 to 1
1943
1st—————498,000——————1,908,000———3.8 to 1
2nd—————110,000——————444,000———-4 to 1
3rd—————533,000——————2,633,000———-5 to 1
4th—————381,000——————1,939,000———-5 to 1
1944
1st—————423,000——————1,859,000———-4.4 to 1
2nd—————352,000——————1,021,000———-3 to 1
3rd—————879,000——————1,771,000———-2 to 1
4th—————297,000——————1,086,000———-3.6 to 1
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RedLancer
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RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by RedLancer »

Welcome back.
&nbsp;
As a WitE Tester you always have the option to try out&nbsp;the 1.08Beta patch that is being refined for release and make your mind up about the future early.
John
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RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

Welcome back.

As a WitE Tester you always have the option to try out the 1.08Beta patch that is being refined for release and make your mind up about the future early.

With 1v1=2v1 FINALLY being removed the game will be playable again.
Opinion aside an Eastern Front game which generally includes SHC winning 90% + of there attacks in the summer of 1941 has zero to do with history and everything to do with a Middle Earth rule 1v1=2v1.

With 10,000 of hours of research of the historical side of the game and 10,000 of hrs of coding and 10,000 of hours of play testing and 1 POS rule screws the hole game and some how it has survived until now?

That's simply someone being stubborn because it was their idea and zero to do with historical accuracy.



Turn 12 GHC Armaments: 45,000 Manpower Pool: 137,000

Manpower Pts over run during 1942 =
Russian Units Destroyed after November 1st 1941
Corp:
Divisions:
Brigades:
SU:
AP total:
Total dead: 1,461,000 Russian losses this turn: 24,000
Russian OOB: 4,982,000
A net gain of: 136,000
Russian units currently in a pocket:
GHC OOB: 3,309,000 ��- Ready Rifle Squads:
GHC net OOB change: -13,000
Total dead: 341,000 German losses this turn: 34,000

Air War

Ratio last turn: 2 : 1

GHC loses: 297
SHC loses: 675

Total GHC loses: 1927
Total SHC loses: 7740

Attacks won lost this turn
SHC------ 14------1------ 7 of the wins were because of 1v1=2v1 9 vs infantry, 2 vs mixed stacks.
Total win ratio 94% win ratio.
SHC------81------5 ------45--- because of 1v1=2v1 or 52%


Again for the 10,000 time in 3 yrs 1v1=2v1 is an exploit by design.

Morale is the King of The Battle Field and removing The Middle Earth rule will make the game playable again.

remove 50+% of wins during the summer of 1941 for SHC and they will not be attacking 20+ times per turn as this would drop morale allot and not drop GHC morale as much.

The rule simply even when not exploited like the better player accounted for 45% of a SHC players wins as per tracked.

SHC players like sapper bomazz ect will have to up there attack forumales which will GREATLY lower attacks per turn and simply not stop the GHC advance, which as we know everything snowballs.

This should make 1941 and 42 historical

a 94% win ratio for SHC in summer of 1941 is simply Middle Earth with 52% caused by 1v1=2v1


No opinion needed just simply common sense.
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RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by charlie0311 »

re 1:1 = 2:1. IMO a careful GHC player won't allow many of these attacks in the south. You can trap a very large part of SW front on T 1. Etc, without too much detail.

However, to defend Leningrad I think the sov player needs the 1:1 rule.

Also, with reduced blizzard. The sov players need 1:1 if the axis player has a line of prepared fortified positions to fall back on.

This is my experience anyway, playing with v.11 and on since last Dec.
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RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

re 1:1 = 2:1. IMO a careful GHC player won't allow many of these attacks in the south. You can trap a very large part of SW front on T 1. Etc, without too much detail.

However, to defend Leningrad I think the sov player needs the 1:1 rule.

Also, with reduced blizzard. The sov players need 1:1 if the axis player has a line of prepared fortified positions to fall back on.

This is my experience anyway, playing with v.11 and on since last Dec.

Depends on who you play more then anything. If I play top people Hooper,MT, sapper, Kamil ect ect they can attack 2 infantry in woods and win with the 1v1=2v1 rule.
If you go to the Pelton vs Sapper AAR I clearly state many of the attacks are vs stacked units in woods ect not 1 unit in the open.

Now if I play a good SHC player I can get a draw before the latest patchs and 1.08.

if I play average to poor SHC its over quickly. Many SHC players claim to be good as there are very very few good GHC players. They might be 7-0, but they really are not any good.
You don't get better unless you read allot of AAR's and then play the better people.

We have seen Bomazz play a top SHC player and get smoked in 1942 badly.
Another person is Katza who wins easly as SHC vs anyone, but can't win vs the better SHC players.

Its all about all things being equal and you never know what equal is unless to play the better people.

If you play a top SHC player your not going to get close to Leningrad/ Smolensk or Don. Its far to easy to get 1v1=2v1 with the right set-up.


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RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by Flaviusx »

Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by inertia.
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RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by inertia.


or

"Heinlein's Razor" has since been defined as variations on Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity, but don't rule out malice.


This quotation is attributed to Albert Einstein in Peter W. Singer's 2009 book Wired for War


The problem being what was causing the inertia, the stupidity is never addressing the cause (1v1=2v1).

Until 1.08

Just my 2 cents :)
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RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by charlie0311 »

For discussion sake, two German inf have approx def cv of 25 (let's say), for 1:1 attacking with 6 units you would need, say 20 cv. That's an average of more than 3. How many sov units in the entire army (summer '41) are more than 3, more than just a few, ok, but only a few more than 5.
The good cv ones are mostly arm and mot, these are the ones you attack and they become depleted or unready because of the huge losses of obsolete tanks. If those same units attack you (you are GHC) same thing, after only a few attacks they become depleted/unready (not sure from memory which it is). If the good red infantry is used for attacking the risk is to be pocketed. You already knew this, no doubt.

I'm not a good player. I can destroy the entire NW front, all of Western front west of Minsk, and a substantial part of SW front on the first turn. Give or take a few depending on combat results, route of routs, how much escapes the western marshes before it's trapped, etc. Give or take is highly operative here, but precious few will escape. Lots of what I say is destroyed is actually pocketed the first turn, then surrenders turns 2-4.

I'm such a slow typist and thinker that I have to stop here or the browser will bail

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RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

For discussion sake, two German inf have approx def cv of 25 (let's say), for 1:1 attacking with 6 units you would need, say 20 cv. That's an average of more than 3. How many sov units in the entire army (summer '41) are more than 3, more than just a few, ok, but only a few more than 5.
The good cv ones are mostly arm and mot, these are the ones you attack and they become depleted or unready because of the huge losses of obsolete tanks. If those same units attack you (you are GHC) same thing, after only a few attacks they become depleted/unready (not sure from memory which it is). If the good red infantry is used for attacking the risk is to be pocketed. You already knew this, no doubt.

I'm not a good player. I can destroy the entire NW front, all of Western front west of Minsk, and a substantial part of SW front on the first turn. Give or take a few depending on combat results, route of routs, how much escapes the western marshes before it's trapped, etc. Give or take is highly operative here, but precious few will escape. Lots of what I say is destroyed is actually pocketed the first turn, then surrenders turns 2-4.

I'm such a slow typist and thinker that I have to stop here or the browser will bail


your not even close good player with draw the better units, turn refit off the the crappy ones and withen 1 or 2 turn have a bunch of units with good CV. Infantry included

Bomazz ignores CV and simply looks at how many troops he has others use CV values.

Both can easly predict wins as Flaviusx proved in testing.
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RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by charlie0311 »

and to continue, I see AGN with plenty of inf near Novgorod by t7, ten turns to the backdoor and across the Neva. Now I'm starting to blather. Sure it's will be opponent dependent. After .08 comes out maybe a top player will give me a shot. Leningrad I think I can take. Moscow, Karkov, Kursk, Stalino, the Crimea, probably not. I would conserve the army to withstand the winter, do much harm as possible in 42 and go over to the defensive. You can have the 1:1, give me the Lvov opening. Should be an interesting melee.
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RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: Pelton

your not even close good player with draw the better units, turn refit off the the crappy ones and withen 1 or 2 turn have a bunch of units with good CV. Infantry included

och Pelton, its only taken you 2 days to revert to insulting people. You do a superb job at undermining any argument you may be making [;)]

By your own confession, you've not played a lot and your most recent experience was the usual weird game that Saper222 serves up, you know a lot, but others have more recent experience of the latest patch, mild winter etc
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RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by charlie0311 »

so give me a schoolin. Withdraw the good stuff, then what stops the Wmacht. By a bunch, how many?
10, 20? Over 5 or 6 only a few, 3 or four, 10, 12? what say you. If you withdraw to refit you aint attackin til t 3 or later. 4 turns to near Smolensk. What about the arm/mot getting depleted from losses

I'm not insulted, bring it on
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RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: Pelton

your not even close good player with draw the better units, turn refit off the the crappy ones and withen 1 or 2 turn have a bunch of units with good CV. Infantry included

och Pelton, its only taken you 2 days to revert to insulting people. You do a superb job at undermining any argument you may be making [;)]

By your own confession, you've not played a lot and your most recent experience was the usual weird game that Saper222 serves up, you know a lot, but others have more recent experience of the latest patch, mild winter etc

That game is mild weather and Katza has played Bomazz lately with same results as the last 1.5 yrs.

1v1=2v1 simply as Flaviusx states starts a feed back loop in 1941 at that.

I really could care less about making friends. The results are what matters.

Ignoring me for months and months about issues with armament/swapping bugs ect ect did not change the facts that they were their and completely ruined all games to that date
( caused collapse of GHC OOB for no reason)

It was a major issue. Ignoring it because someone bitched about it the wrong way doesn't change the fact it ruined games after 43.

Same goes for 1v1=2v1. Its not historical.

nothing can change that fact.

I played sapper for the simple reason I know he exploited the sht out of the rule 94% win ratio for SHC in 1941 is Middle Earth.

Ignoring the facts doesn't change them. They are just being ignored.
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RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by charlie0311 »

still waiting to hear about the "wild bunch", all those sov units with good cv. I want names!!! So I can kick some ass.

Oops slight slip up, "Booty" not "ass". The old jarhead in me likes to speak occasionally.
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RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by charlie0311 »

and to answer my own question. 40 units sov t4, cv 4 or greater, from the commander's report.

a dozen or so escaped the Lvov pockets. Most are arm/mot, four cv 5 rifle divisions, about 10 more cv 4 rds. My opponent is a first timer, he didn't want to practice t1 but to dive in.

Against a better GHC the sov would have less to start with. News flash: won't be getting many victories w/o the 1:1 bonus against GHC who is fairly careful about giving too many opportunities.

Oh please, somebody straighten me out right now, with facts. Heard enough generalities.

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RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by smokindave34 »

Wow Pelton - we haven't heard from you in months and now I can't keep up with all your posts! Things just got a lot more interesting around here.....
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RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by Peltonx »

It has been boring around here, been jumping on forums weekly waiting and waiting for 1v1=2v1 one to get nerfed.

Almost a quiet as a grave yard.

Figured I would kick a little dirt around at least for now.

1.08 looks great. I will just keep waiting as they done all work and deserve all the credit.

I will get 4 games rolling after it been publicly play tested.

Might start one for fun to help public beta test to find bugs.

Good to see your around also bro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWHs9atxCeU

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RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by jwolf »

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

and to answer my own question. 40 units sov t4, cv 4 or greater, from the commander's report.

I hope it's not just me, but uniformly when I check the commander's report, unit CVs are inflated by 1 across the board. So (unless you already accounted for that or it somehow doesn't happen for you) you may have had fewer "good" Soviet units than you thought.
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RE: This game still unplayable?

Post by Ketza »

Its very easy to get a major force of high CV soviet units by turn 3 or 4 at latest. Pull every unit with a CV of 2 or 3 and place them in an army out of harms way with a decent leader and funnel replacements to just those armies.

I typically place 2 of these armies on the Luga, and one on the landbridge. Your not going to get a crossing over the Dnepr in the south until turn 5 or 6 so no point in sending any replacements down there at all.


Oh and HI Pelton!
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