Conquering and other stuff....

[warspite1]

I'm confused (as usual) [&:]

In My AAR I have a message that the Netherlands are Conquered. However, at the end of the turn there was no throw for the naval units in Rotterdam. Is this anything to do with the British units occupying Rotterdam at the end of that turn?

Would a rules guru mind having a look at post 154 and 155 too please? I am not sure why column shifts for weather were not in play for these two attacks.

Thanks in advance.

[Joseignacio]

All naval units now in enemy controlled hexes are treated as if they had been overrun (see 11.11.6). This means they can be captured, destroyed or forced to rebase.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

All naval units now in enemy controlled hexes are treated as if they had been overrun (see 11.11.6). This means they can be captured, destroyed or forced to rebase.

warspite1

Thanks, but Rotterdam's naval units have not been overrun. I cannot see any reference to this in RAC.

[Joseignacio]

That's what I mean. When there is a conquer, the effect is that of an overrun. Sorry for not quoting all, thought you knew that one:

13.7.1 Conquest
You can only conquer a home country or territory if you are at war with the major power or minor country that controls it.
All conquest in a turn occurs simultaneously.
Minor countries never conquer anything. The home country or territory is instead conquered by the minor’s controlling major power (unless it is not at war, see 2.5).
You cannot conquer a conquered minor country or territory. You may only liberate or revert it (see 13.7.5).

[...]

Incomplete conquest
Merely conquering a major power or minor country doesn’t mean it is out of the game. That only happens when it is completely conquered (see below). Until then, it fights on with its remaining units.
Remove from the game all the conquered home county’s land and aircraft units that are in the conquered home country. Remove from the game all of its land and aircraft units not on the map.
PiF option 28: You also lose the pilots in those aircraft and on the Production Circle.
Remove any naval units in its force pools (except convoy points) from the game. All other units remain where they are.
Roll a die for each of its naval units on the production circle, or in the construction pool or repair pool. On a ‘1’ or ‘2’ it becomes controlled by any major power the conquered major power chooses (including itself). On a ‘3’ through ‘5’ it is destroyed. On a ‘6’ or higher it becomes controlled by any major power the conqueror chooses.
All units from the conquered side in that country are now moved to the nearest friendly hex outside the country that they may stack in, unless they are at war with the conquerer.
Now change the control of the conquered home country. Every one of its hexes occupied by a land or aircraft unit (most combat factors if more than one), or in the uncontested (by any other major power) ZoC of a land unit, becomes controlled by that unit’s controlling major power; unless already controlled by another major power on the same side. All other hexes in the home country become controlled by the conquering major power. All other territory the conquered major power or minor country controls remains under its control.
Example: The US conquers Italy in Sep/Oct 1943 while Italy controls an aligned Yugoslavia. Germany and the Commonwealth control every hex it Italy containing one of their land or aircraft units. They also get all hexes in Italy exclusively in their ZoCs not occupied by land or aircraft units.
The USA gets all the other hexes in Italy including La Spezia which contains the Italian fleet only and is not in the ZoC of any land unit. She also gets control of several empty hexes in the ZoC of any two of the US, Commonwealth and/or Germany. Italy keeps control of Yugoslavia.

All naval units now in enemy controlled hexes are treated as if they had been overrun (see 11.11.6). This means they can be captured, destroyed or forced to rebase.

[:)]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

That's what I mean. When there is a conquer, the effect is that of an overrun. Sorry for not quoting all, thought you knew that one:

13.7.1 Conquest
You can only conquer a home country or territory if you are at war with the major power or minor country that controls it.
All conquest in a turn occurs simultaneously.
Minor countries never conquer anything. The home country or territory is instead conquered by the minor’s controlling major power (unless it is not at war, see 2.5).
You cannot conquer a conquered minor country or territory. You may only liberate or revert it (see 13.7.5).

[...]

Incomplete conquest
Merely conquering a major power or minor country doesn’t mean it is out of the game. That only happens when it is completely conquered (see below). Until then, it fights on with its remaining units.
Remove from the game all the conquered home county’s land and aircraft units that are in the conquered home country. Remove from the game all of its land and aircraft units not on the map.
PiF option 28: You also lose the pilots in those aircraft and on the Production Circle.
Remove any naval units in its force pools (except convoy points) from the game. All other units remain where they are.
Roll a die for each of its naval units on the production circle, or in the construction pool or repair pool. On a ‘1’ or ‘2’ it becomes controlled by any major power the conquered major power chooses (including itself). On a ‘3’ through ‘5’ it is destroyed. On a ‘6’ or higher it becomes controlled by any major power the conqueror chooses.
All units from the conquered side in that country are now moved to the nearest friendly hex outside the country that they may stack in, unless they are at war with the conquerer.
Now change the control of the conquered home country. Every one of its hexes occupied by a land or aircraft unit (most combat factors if more than one), or in the uncontested (by any other major power) ZoC of a land unit, becomes controlled by that unit’s controlling major power; unless already controlled by another major power on the same side. All other hexes in the home country become controlled by the conquering major power. All other territory the conquered major power or minor country controls remains under its control.
Example: The US conquers Italy in Sep/Oct 1943 while Italy controls an aligned Yugoslavia. Germany and the Commonwealth control every hex it Italy containing one of their land or aircraft units. They also get all hexes in Italy exclusively in their ZoCs not occupied by land or aircraft units.
The USA gets all the other hexes in Italy including La Spezia which contains the Italian fleet only and is not in the ZoC of any land unit. She also gets control of several empty hexes in the ZoC of any two of the US, Commonwealth and/or Germany. Italy keeps control of Yugoslavia.

All naval units now in enemy controlled hexes are treated as if they had been overrun (see 11.11.6). This means they can be captured, destroyed or forced to rebase.

[:)]

warspite1

Great thanks Jose.

[Courtenay]

The point is that Rotterdam is CW controlled, so that it is not enemy controlled, so that it is not overrun. The CW managed to save all the Netherlands ships. They will never be rolled for.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

The point is that Rotterdam is CW controlled, so that it is not enemy controlled, so that it is not overrun. The CW managed to save all the Netherlands ships. They will never be rolled for.

warspite1

I hadn't appreciated that additional fact - thanks Courtenay.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I'm confused (as usual) [&:]

In My AAR I have a message that the Netherlands are Conquered. However, at the end of the turn there was no throw for the naval units in Rotterdam. Is this anything to do with the British units occupying Rotterdam at the end of that turn?

Would a rules guru mind having a look at post 154 and 155 too please? I am not sure why column shifts for weather were not in play for these two attacks.

Thanks in advance.

warspite1

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

[paulderynck]

154 - it looks to me the odds would be Infinity to one (defender was a zero partisan). Infinity shifted = infinity.

155 - not enough info. I can see the attack, but not the attack factors. Could it be it was still an auto attack even after the shift?

[Courtenay]

In snow weather, the lake hexside is treated as a river. Since it is a surprise impulse, the river does not halve the attacking factors. I suspect that this explains why the attack was automatic.

[warspite1]

Re the Partisan that makes sense - its a 0 factor not a 1.

Re the Dutch attack, the odds are exactly 10:1 - 40:4 before any modifiers.. As I said in post 155, the treatment of the frozen lake, the canal hex side and surprise have all been taken - correctly - into account. This leaves an attack at exactly 10:1. So the question is, why is there not now a 2-column shift for the weather?

[WarHunter]

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Re the Partisan that makes sense - its a 0 factor not a 1.
Re the Dutch attack, the odds are exactly 10:1 - 40:4 before any modifiers.. As I said in post 155, the treatment of the frozen lake, the canal hex side and surprise have all been taken - correctly - into account. This leaves an attack at exactly 10:1. So the question is, why is there not now a 2-column shift for the weather?

This has been reported some time ago.
tm.asp?m=3592593

Auto victory during non-clear weather does not seem to include the negative odds shift.
Most noticeable when an attack like yours is done. Using the 1D10 crt

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Re the Partisan that makes sense - its a 0 factor not a 1.
Re the Dutch attack, the odds are exactly 10:1 - 40:4 before any modifiers.. As I said in post 155, the treatment of the frozen lake, the canal hex side and surprise have all been taken - correctly - into account. This leaves an attack at exactly 10:1. So the question is, why is there not now a 2-column shift for the weather?

This has been reported some time ago.
tm.asp?m=3592593

Auto victory during non-clear weather does not seem to include the negative odds shift.
Most noticeable when an attack like yours is done. Using the 1D10 crt

warspite1

Okay thanks - I assumed I had missed a rule somewhere. I guess its on Steve's to do pile then.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

The point is that Rotterdam is CW controlled, so that it is not enemy controlled, so that it is not overrun. The CW managed to save all the Netherlands ships. They will never be rolled for.

warspite1

I hadn't appreciated that additional fact - thanks Courtenay.

Sh*t. I really need to not give things for granted and explain myself well (in detail). [:@][:)] Of course, that's what I meant.

[rkr1958]

Sorry to butt in, but I have a similar situation in Denmark except the Danish port of Frederikshaw was never controlled by any power except Denmark at surrender. I got a message that Denmark surrenders and the naval units in Frederiskshaw are overrun and must rebase. There were no rolls for captured, destroyed or escape. I was able to rebase all Danish naval units to Scapa Flow with rolling. Is this correct?

If not, I do have the game saved just before this happens.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

Sorry to butt in, but I have a similar situation in Denmark except the Danish port of Frederikshaw was never controlled by any power except Denmark at surrender. I got a message that Denmark surrenders and the naval units in Frederiskshaw are overrun and must rebase. There were no rolls for captured, destroyed or escape. I was able to rebase all Danish naval units to Scapa Flow with rolling. Is this correct?

If not, I do have the game saved just before this happens.

In this case the program is correct. All hexes in Denmark become controlled by Germany (the conqueror). The naval units are forced to rebase but they do not have to roll for capture because they were neither disorganized nor surprised. As a counter example, if the Polish naval units are overrun in the first impulse of the game, they are surprised and have to roll for their outcome.

[Joseignacio]

Yep, that's the most usual.

One frequent tactic is to carry as many as you are let (by the rules) to Greenland (Or was it Iceland? I think it was Iceland cause it belonged to Denmark (?), don't know). Those unit wouldn't be overrun.

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
In this case the program is correct. All hexes in Denmark become controlled by Germany (the conqueror). The naval units are forced to rebase but they do not have to roll for capture because they were neither disorganized nor surprised. As a counter example, if the Polish naval units are overrun in the first impulse of the game, they are surprised and have to roll for their outcome.

Thanks!

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Yep, that's the most usual.

One frequent tactic is to carry as many as you are let (by the rules) to Greenland (Or was it Iceland? I think it was Iceland cause it belonged to Denmark (?), don't know). Those unit wouldn't be overrun.

That's good to know. Would it also prevent capture if the Danish naval units were moved out to the North Sea?

[Joseignacio]

1- It would, but you usually don't have a chance, declaration of war in a Fine climate allows a 4 or + mobility unit to take Copenhagen and there is no time for such moves prior to the conquer.

2- Of course the ships could have been sailed to the sea in previous impulses but then nobody was carrying Denmark because it was still neutral and unaligned.

1(*) Hmmm wait a minute! The conquer is a phase after the turn is over, so you should not implement the overrun until that phase, no? We do the overrun instantly when the conditions are met, no when the phase arrives. Anyone?

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets



In this case the program is correct. All hexes in Denmark become controlled by Germany (the conqueror). The naval units are forced to rebase but they do not have to roll for capture because they were neither disorganized nor surprised. As a counter example, if the Polish naval units are overrun in the first impulse of the game, they are surprised and have to roll for their outcome.

Steve, you sure?

All naval units now in enemy controlled hexes are treated as if they had been overrun (see 11.11.6). This means they can be captured, destroyed or forced to rebase.

Comes from here:

13.7.1 Conquest
You can only conquer a home country or territory if you are at war with the major power or minor country that controls it.
All conquest in a turn occurs simultaneously.
Minor countries never conquer anything. The home country or territory is instead conquered by the minor’s controlling major power (unless it is not at war, see 2.5).
You cannot conquer a conquered minor country or territory. You may only liberate or revert it (see 13.7.5).
Territories
To conquer a territory, you must control every city and port in that territory. If it has no ports or cities, you need to control every hex instead.
If more than one major power from the same side controls ports and cities in a territory, the major power with the greatest influence is the conqueror. Use this priority to determine who has the greatest influence:
1. Whoever controls the most ports and cities in the territory.
2. Whoever has the highest garrison value (see 13.1) in the territory.
3. Whoever occupied the territory’s last city or port.
You also conquer a territory if you control every port and coastal city in every sea area the territory has a coastal hex in.
When you conquer a territory, control of every enemy controlled hex there not occupied by an enemy land unit passes to your major power.
Italy
Italy is conquered when any 3 of these are true during this step:
1. The Allies control Rome.
2. The Allies control Tripoli.
3. The Allies control any printed factory hex in Italy (apart from Rome).
4. The Allied garrison value (see 13.1) in Italy is greater than the Italian garrison value there (remember, Sicily is part of Italy).
Other home countries
To conquer any other home country, you must control its capital plus every printed factory hex in that home country. You do not need to control a hex that only contains factories that were moved, or built, there.
If more than one major power from the same side controls the capital and printed factories in a home country, the major power with the greatest influence in that home country is the conqueror. Use this priority to determine who has the greatest influence:
1. Whoever controls most factories in the home country (with the capital counting as an additional 3 factories for this calculation).
2. Whoever has the highest garrison value (see 13.1) in the home country.
3. Whoever occupied the home country’s last factory or capital city.
Incomplete conquest
Merely conquering a major power or minor country doesn’t mean it is out of the game. That only happens when it is completely conquered (see below). Until then, it fights on with its remaining units.
Remove from the game all the conquered home county’s land and aircraft units that are in the conquered home country. Remove from the game all of its land and aircraft units not on the map.
PiF option 28: You also lose the pilots in those aircraft and on the Production Circle.
Remove any naval units in its force pools (except convoy points) from the game. All other units remain where they are.
Roll a die for each of its naval units on the production circle, or in the construction pool or repair pool. On a ‘1’ or ‘2’ it becomes controlled by any major power the conquered major power chooses (including itself). On a ‘3’ through ‘5’ it is destroyed. On a ‘6’ or higher it becomes controlled by any major power the conqueror chooses.
All units from the conquered side in that country are now moved to the nearest friendly hex outside the country that they may stack in, unless they are at war with the conquerer.
Now change the control of the conquered home country. Every one of its hexes occupied by a land or aircraft unit (most combat factors if more than one), or in the uncontested (by any other major power) ZoC of a land unit, becomes controlled by that unit’s controlling major power; unless already controlled by another major power on the same side. All other hexes in the home country become controlled by the conquering major power. All other territory the conquered major power or minor country controls remains under its control.
Example: The US conquers Italy in Sep/Oct 1943 while Italy controls an aligned Yugoslavia. Germany and the Commonwealth control every hex it Italy containing one of their land or aircraft units. They also get all hexes in Italy exclusively in their ZoCs not occupied by land or aircraft units.
The USA gets all the other hexes in Italy including La Spezia which contains the Italian fleet only and is not in the ZoC of any land unit. She also gets control of several empty hexes in the ZoC of any two of the US, Commonwealth and/or Germany. Italy keeps control of Yugoslavia.
All naval units now in enemy controlled hexes are treated as if they had been overrun (see 11.11.6). This means they can be captured, destroyed or forced to rebase.

Wouldn't Friedrikshaven change to German control and so should be overrun with possibility of capture or destruction?