How to take Greece?

[Joseignacio]

This has been an issue for me for some time.

It's obvious that Greece is not a strong country in WIF, IIRW you get two units, might be three. However, the mountain land that separates it from Yugoslavia and Bulgaria often makes it a slow advance. No doubt they would soon fall to the power of GE and IT but in the meantime, CW could send successfully peacekeepers, able to stop the AXIS or at least get a Chit bonus for deploying 4 corps inside.

Having those 4 corps would also allow them to align Yugoslavia, which was what the axis was originally trying to achieve through invading Greece.

Another question: Aligning Yugoslavia as a result of taking Greece, would trigger an Entry Chit roll as well or this would be for free?

Edit: If not wanting to Invade Yugoslavia, I would invade the two southern minor ports in Greece ( Patrai and "Kalama"?) with divisions and then transport corps there. Of course, I would have a couple of stacks in Albania.

Although my question is valid for any situation, I am more interested in the case of not being able to align Romania because not having been claimed Bessarabia, so no GE units could reach Bulgaria...

I cannot see how Reggia Marina can stop the Brits from debarking even with some naval air support...

[michaelbaldur]

no CW player would send transporters into a sea area with Italian naval units.

they would be in a low box, and would be targeted.

and to support Greece, cw would need 4 unused transporters / with the range to reach east Mediterranean., places with 4 available corps.

and if the CW have that kind of units on standby, the allied are really in trouble

[michaelbaldur]

so Italy should go for Greece in 1940. where Greece only have 2 land units.

and then CW should be heavily involved in the defense of France.

[michaelbaldur]

Italy can take Greece in 1 turn, using combines. just slowly close in on the capital.

you would get 6-7 impulses in a 1940 summer turn

[michaelbaldur]

another issue is war ...

if CW dow Italy they will get a big us entry hit, and make Italy a active country. opening up for German lend lease to Italy.

most often CW just ignore a neutral Italy taking on Greece

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

If you can't go through Bulgaria, it's tough to knock over Greece.

Now, how the Greeks set up is going to be very much affected by how the Italians/Germans set up, so there's no one defense. But if you are set up to do a division invade, and say you're attacking in M/J 40, then you have to be ready for a setup in which the Greeks put the Mtn in Athens and the infantry in hex 2512,(the one between Patrai and Kalami), which means that the notional will now have a 2 strength if you invade, and therefore is rather dangerous.


I very much disagree with MichaelBaldur. If the Italians are setting up to launch an invasion of Greece, and with low action limits (especially if they're neutral), it will be telegraphed for some time, I will risk my transports to send a guy or two to have some more warm bodies in those mountain passes, and I'll escort them with carriers. It's not that easy for the Italians to project a lot of force in the Eastern Med, especially before France has fallen.

I wouldn't send enough to get the USE bonus, but a garr or mil or two, yeah, I'll flood those in, make a cordon around Athens. And if Italy is neutral, it's even easier, I can still send in peacekeepers, and I don't have to worry about naval interception or supply.



Another thing to keep in mind, is if you're attacking via Albania, yu've got a lot of mountains to cover. And it can take a long time to do so You've got a grand total of one mountain unit (which you might have broken down for more invadable divisions) who can move 2 hexes at a time through the Greek mtns, and he can't conquer Greece all by himself. The obvious solution is to beg Germany for a couple of inf corps, guys who can move 4, he has a bunch of those. Whether or not those will be available depends in large part in how things have gone in France. If you can attack with some German units though Albania, it gets much, much trickier for the Allies to hold on, but if it's just the Italians, be prepared for a long, hard slog if the CW wants to fight for Greece.

[brian brian]

Greece is one of the more interesting small wars that can appear in the game. Almost always a different situation every time. The AI for Greece thread was quite good.

The CW holds the cards …. what do they want to do? A good CW player can accomplish several things simultaneously. A bad CW player builds CVs and LND-4 bombers in 1940 while the Axis conquer everything in sight.

Unless you really want to align Yugoslavia as the Axis, a Greek campaign seems less than wise. The DOW instantly hands the CW 10 Build Points. Say what? Yes - 10 Convoy Points. Bad Axis players declare war on too many countries and then complain that the Battle of the Atlantic is pointless.

Axis naval air is a big key in Greece. To hit those Convoy Points if possible, and later the CW TRS. But as noted, it is a tough place to fly for the Axis early on. And if your goal is actually influencing Belgrade, going in too weak (by a DOW that is too early, i.e. before the Luftwaffe is untangled from elsewhere), well that could lose the main strategic advantage for attacking the place.



The historical CW lost a cruiser in the Greek campaign to a unique Axis bomber - an Me-109. I've always thought just one WiF counter of those should have a 1 air-to-sea factor for that.

[tacfire]

From my limited experience playing WiF, Greece can be very difficult to conquer with the 'defensive shore bombardment option' turn on.

With this option turned on, the Brits can make Greece a very difficult nut to crack by setting up some mountain units in the mountain hexes around Athens and supporting them with defensive shore bombardment from the Commonwealth Navy in the Eastern Med sea area.

The Italian Navy and Axis Naval Air are forced to give battle with the Commonwealth Fleet in the Eastern Med Sea. And a victory at sea in this sea zone is the key to taking Greece with this option enabled.

[Joseignacio]

Michael:

I have been CW player many times, and I can tell you:

- The CW has an overwhelming advantage over Italy in 1939 and 1940 due to carriers but also due to the huge CW fleet (not speaking of cruisers for escort missions but battleships and carriers ) and most of the the Italian battleships in repair or worse, under construction, plus no CVs. The fighter available to Italy at that time are mostly low range so IT navs cannot be well protected or can only reach the 1 box. Because of this, it's not dangerous to move transports to Greece

- CW has a lot of available units, the BEF in France usually consists of 3 units, and even with stronger BEFs (bringing the other HQ from Egypt and putting 2-3 more units in France, won't exhaust UK resources. You can easily ship TERR corps from African areas, from Egypt and some good units from UK, I have done it and I have rolled (successfully) for the American Entry chit, plus defended Greece for a long time until the GE came in force, with the help of a massive CW air support.

- The transports do not need to stay at sea, the ships can get to a port (Athens and other possible free ones), divisions can land anywhere from cruisers and stay at higher boxes, and transports don't need to be in a low box if they come from Malta or Egypt, which could be achieved if the previous turn you prepare yourself while you see the IT send more and more troops to Albania.

- Remember an IT combined allows only to move 2 units, it's really a poor movement rate if you want to take Greece. I think using some GE INF units with 4 mobility, , as proposed, can help...

- If I am not wrong, CW doesn't need to declare war, so it would normally not do it.

UR:

From my point of view as a GE player at the end of 39, I have got many spare units to send to Albania, there is a given number of hexes in the French border, of course that number will increase as soon as the border is no longer a straight line, but still enough. I could easily send 4 units to invade Greece, including my weaker HQ , but that would mean telegraphing my next actions to the CW player. They would need to be railed to Italy, then wait for another turn, then be shipped, ... All this even while garrisoning reasonably Poland and having peacekeepers in Finland (which I have right now) Invading France is not so much a matter of quantity but of quality of troops (and offensive chits if necessary).

Brian:

Thanks for the tip on the GR thread, didn't know there was a specific one.

Yes, I want to align Yugoslavia to the axis, the can garrison all the Balkans, provide factories and resources (resources would be given anyway, I know) without losing units, giving notional units along the rocky Yugoslavian coast, ..., they could even help garrisoning France, the Brest area for example.

Hmmmm 10 convoys. Too bad. I guess I'll have to send the GE subs and as many IT as I can get to the sea...

Interesting too the point about the air support, you are right. Then, I could send the spare units to Albania and wait till France is about to fall, then rebase some stukas and fighters and go for it. The real important thing for me is that the CW doesn't get peacekeepers in Athens or around, don't know how to avoid this specially if IT is not at war, and I would really prefer that IT is not. Driving me nuts.

The reasons are : aligning Yug + resource (a resource more from so early on is priceless, can give a huge number of BPs).

[Joseignacio]

Tac:

So true. Sigh! But I think CW cannot give support to peacekeepers, so that is only in case of war with CW.

[tacfire]

Yes, agreed CW must be in a state of war with the invaders of Greece to bring the wrath of its defensive shore bombardment into the combat equation.

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Tac:

So true. Sigh! But I think CW cannot give support to peacekeepers, so that is only in case of war with CW.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: brian brian



Unless you really want to align Yugoslavia as the Axis, a Greek campaign seems less than wise. The DOW instantly hands the CW 10 Build Points. Say what? Yes - 10 Convoy Points. Bad Axis players declare war on too many countries and then complain that the Battle of the Atlantic is pointless.

What happens if GE and IT declare war to Greece? Can it be allied to Brits? If it cannot, because IT is neutral towards CW, and CW player is only moving the forces but not allied then... would all those convoys go to CW?

[composer99]

To my knowledge, Greece can always align to CW if an Axis major power declares war on it. It certainly can if Germany does, whatever Italy's status in the general war.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: composer99

To my knowledge, Greece can always align to CW if an Axis major power declares war on it. It certainly can if Germany does, whatever Italy's status in the general war.

Hmmm...

If GE does then it seems clear. If IT does, not so sure:

19.2 Entering the war
A minor country enters the war when:
• a major power declares war on it (see 9.5); or
• it aligns with a major power (see 9.6).

9.5 Allocating minors
You now allocate control of minor countries declared war on this step to a major power on the other side, in order of declaration (see 19.2). The minor country is now aligned with that major power (see 9.6) who immediately sets up their units (see 19.4).

But if Italy is neutral:

- Is it part of the "other side" because it's AXIS? or
- There is no "other side" because it's neutral?

[composer99]

The glossary explicitly defines the sides as:

Side [there are two sides in World in Flames, the Axis and the Allies]

and define each side as:

Axis [Germany, Italy, Japan and their controlled minor countries]

and

Allies [USA, Commonwealth, USSR, France, China and their controlled minor countries]

That being the case, if a neutral Italy (by definition on the Axis side) declares war on Greece, it has to be controlled by a major power on the other (that is, Allied) side, meaning the CW is eligible.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: composer99

The glossary explicitly defines the sides as:

Side [there are two sides in World in Flames, the Axis and the Allies]

and define each side as:

Axis [Germany, Italy, Japan and their controlled minor countries]

and

Allies [USA, Commonwealth, USSR, France, China and their controlled minor countries]

That being the case, if a neutral Italy (by definition on the Axis side) declares war on Greece, it has to be controlled by a major power on the other (that is, Allied) side, meaning the CW is eligible.

I was not meaning you were wrong, in fact I think you may be right, but in this case, why that doesn't apply to Finland or Rumania?

On the other side, there are specific rules about these countries ...

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

Being able to align a minor country that has been DoWed is based on activity, not on whether you're at war with the major power making the declaration.

First turn of the game, I like to have the CW declare war on Portugal a lot. It's entirely legal, and honestly a pretty good idea, to align the Portuguese with Japan, not with Germany.

19.2

In every other case, when one or more major powers declare war on a minor country, choose an active major power on the other side to align with it.

Not sure what you mmean by the reference to Finland or Rumania. I mean, the border rectification gives them special rules if the Soviets want to start anything, but if say, the CW declares war on Rumania, it gets aligned to an Axis major same as anyone else.

[Joseignacio]

Exactly that. i never saw CW declaring war to any of them and I was wondering why there were just peacekeepers and not a total alignment. Wondered if because of their special rules.

EDIT: In this case I played it wrong in EWC, and nobody told me (although we were in an intermediate table whle the other were "expert"), I handled the CW only as peacekeepers and I did a good job, kept Greece almost to the American Entry. But has I known I could have used them in offensive... [:@]

[composer99]

Ah, if Italy declares war on Greece and CW takes control of Greece, and Italy and CW are not at war, CW troops in Greece are equivalent to German peacekeepers in Rumania/Finland.

The border rectification rules aren't the ones that force German troops to play the role of peacekeepers if there is a Soviet-Finnish or Soviet-Rumanian war, the multiple states of war rules are.

[Joseignacio]

Oooof this is a mess.

So, the aditional defending units need to be peacekeepers and so the attacked minor cannot be aligned depending on what? The neutrality or not of the agressor?

In case someone wants to see the AAR although it no longer links to Marcejap's photos...

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