OT: Was Stalin Killed?

[Footslogger]

A brilliant documentary about who killed Stalin?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsXSqghOf94

[czert2]

imagine if stalien died/was murdered in 45-47 - how nicer world will be to live in.

[Terminus]

And by "nicer" you mean "much worse", presumably. Otherwise, that's as stupid as saying the world would have been a "nicer place" if Stauffenberg had succeeded in blowing up Hitler.

[warspite1]

Surely we have no way of knowing either way? It depends on how any successor(s) to Stalin acted differently to him, and what the west's reaction to that action was?

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

And by "nicer" you mean "much worse", presumably. Otherwise, that's as stupid as saying the world would have been a "nicer place" if Stauffenberg had succeeded in blowing up Hitler.

From a military POV, Stauffenberg's assassination of Hitler (if successful) would have put the Allies in a much poorer position. Hitler's consolidation of power within the OKW after mid-1944 precluded a more skillful defense in the West, had it been run by competent generals. Who knows what the post-war European landscape would have looked like with an earlier deposition of the Nazi heirarchy? Would latent national socialism be tamped down and rise again later in a less prostrate Germany?

The world is not a 'nice place'. Certainly not the world of the early-mid 20th century. It could have been 'differently bad', but just not in a forseeable manner.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

Even with Stauffenberg succeeding, it would had been tremendously difficult to get the Nazis out of power. Most likely either Himmler, Goering or Goebbels would had become the new fuhrer. And it is difficult to believe the Allies or the Soviets would had accepted any kind of peaoe without surrender.

Going back to the topic of the post. It will be near impossible to prove that Stalin was murdered. He died at 74 which is well above the Russian life expectancy. He was careful enough to be able to survive 30 years as unchallenged dictator of a backstabbers' country and regime.

[wdolson]

Whether Stalin was murdered or not probably doesn't have a big impact on the world today. Stalin was nearing the end whether someone pushed him or not.

What if is one reason we play war games. If Stalin had died near the end of WW II, he may have been replaced by someone more reasonable, or someone worse. One point in history where Stalin could have been killed was December 1941 when he refused to leave Moscow. If a stray bomb or artillery shell had killed him, the war may have taken a very different twist. Stalin had made sure he was synonymous with the Russian war effort and his loss would have surely thrown the USSR into at least some degree of chaos.

As far as the plot to assassinate Hitler, the planners had an entire coup plan that would have put one of the plotters in power in Berlin within minutes of the assassination. They actually started putting the plan into place when the bomb went off, but were quickly rounded up. If one of the predominate Nazis had managed to take back power, the war probably would have been tougher for the Allies because it would have been likely that Goering or Doenitz or one of the other leaders would have worked better with the top generals and coordinated a better defense. Hitler's stand firm orders ultimately weakened Germany.

However, if the people who pulled off the coup had held power, Germany may have capitulated fairly quickly. Another facet of the what if is that a number of Germans executed after the coup attempt would have been left alive, including Rommel. Rommel may have become prominent in the post war West German military.

Bill

[Terminus]

The Stauffenberg plotters didn't want to capitulate. They wanted to make a separate peace with the West, and hoped to draw them into fighting the Soviets alongside the Germans.

And as for Stalin's successor? Can you say B-e-r-i-a?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The Stauffenberg plotters didn't want to capitulate. They wanted to make a separate peace with the West, and hoped to draw them into fighting the Soviets alongside the Germans.

And as for Stalin's successor? Can you say B-e-r-i-a?

warspite1

czert2 said what if he was murdered in 45-47 - he didn't say who by.

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The Stauffenberg plotters didn't want to capitulate. They wanted to make a separate peace with the West, and hoped to draw them into fighting the Soviets alongside the Germans.

And as for Stalin's successor? Can you say B-e-r-i-a?

Another "what if"... What would the plotters have done when they found out the western allies were standing strong with Russia and were unwilling to make a separate peace?

The Battle of the Ardennes probably wouldn't have happened. Those units instead may have been thrown into the fray against the Russians. Operation Bodenplatte probably wouldn't have happened either, which would have left the Luftwaffe with a bit more in the way of resources in 1945.

Bill

[czert2]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

And by "nicer" you mean "much worse", presumably. Otherwise, that's as stupid as saying the world would have been a "nicer place" if Stauffenberg had succeeded in blowing up Hitler.

Why do you think world will be worse ? after all, his sucesssors were not that big sociophats like him.
And i dont think that staufenberg was hero.

[czert2]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The Stauffenberg plotters didn't want to capitulate. They wanted to make a separate peace with the West, and hoped to draw them into fighting the Soviets alongside the Germans.

And as for Stalin's successor? Can you say B-e-r-i-a?

I dont think that beria is likeable (long time) succesor, yes he will propably tried hard to get there or at least have power over new succesor, but more likely he will be shot dead in famous cells of nkvd headquaters, as IRL.
Stalin was dead, so beria must die too.
Well, it is arguable if his opposition will have same power to imprison him around 47, as did they have in 53.
Aftell all, berias "live insurances" were that he was very feared,hated and have power over nkvd , and was stalins protege.
After stalins death, fear , hate and nkvd proved inadeqate .