Waypoints. How many do you really need?

The new Cold War turned hot wargame from On Target Simulations, now expanded with the Player's Edition! Choose the NATO or Soviet forces in one of many scenarios or two linked campaigns. No effort was spared to model modern warfare realistically, including armor, infantry, helicopters, air support, artillery, electronic warfare, chemical and nuclear weapons. An innovative new asynchronous turn order means that OODA loops and various effects on C3 are accurately modeled as never before.

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IronMikeGolf
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RE: Waypoints. How many do you really need?

Post by IronMikeGolf »

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
...This is in part a game. The issue is where to draw that line between sim and game. Too many waypoints and micromanagement gets away from the core emphasis that Flashpoint Campaigns is trying to achieve...

MR

Fair enough, but....

The option of more waypoints leaves that choice up to the player, doesn't? Just because I can specify 5, 10, an unlimited number (or even 3 for that matter) of waypoints doesn't mean I must use all of them.

What I find in my play is that I use few waypoints when the movement is over a long distance (moving just-appeared reinforcements, for example) and more waypoint as units close on the enemy. And I use more waypoint to tack advantage of terrain, just like a leader would have his unit do.

The AI is deficient here. It does not know when to stay off roads and in the woods and gullies. It does not know when not to fly over the top of a ridgeline. The limited number of waypoints currently coupled with realistic orders delay turns tactical maneuver into a quagmire at times.

And, I think it would be marvelous for one product to be able to be played as a game or used as a sim. As it sits right now, I would not have hesitated to use this game to run a CPX when I was a contract tactical trainer in Saudi in the 90's. So, please, don't think I am down on FPRS. I am an avid fan!

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Mad Russian
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RE: Waypoints. How many do you really need?

Post by Mad Russian »

Fair enough.

We have tried to give as much latitude as possible for the different play styles. I was simply pointing out why some things are the way they are at the moment. Not much is locked in stone. Even if it is we still look at all your comments. Whether we end up agreeing with them or not is another issue altogether.

Good Hunting.

MR
The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
IronMikeGolf
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RE: Waypoints. How many do you really need?

Post by IronMikeGolf »

Thanks, MR. A fair look is all I can ask for.
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rixtertech
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RE: Waypoints. How many do you really need?

Post by rixtertech »

What Iron Mike said. It's not about micro-managing the system, it's about giving reasonable orders and seeing the AI execute them in an unreasonable or unrealistic way. The player should have enough waypoints to see his next order cycle resolved without a given unit exposing itself along it's path of travel or otherwise doing things a real unit wouldn't do. If the AI in it's current (and assumably future) state can't always be counted on to guide a unit, the player should be allotted enough control to do it when he wants to bother, without penalty. It'll help the games longevity and keep it relevant. If it will affect balance, maybe the user can set the max waypoints for a given game?

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jack54
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RE: Waypoints. How many do you really need?

Post by jack54 »

ORIGINAL: Iron Mike Golf



Fair enough, but....

The option of more waypoints leaves that choice up to the player, doesn't? Just because I can specify 5, 10, an unlimited number (or even 3 for that matter) of waypoints doesn't mean I must use all of them.

What I find in my play is that I use few waypoints when the movement is over a long distance (moving just-appeared reinforcements, for example) and more waypoint as units close on the enemy. And I use more waypoint to tack advantage of terrain, just like a leader would have his unit do.

The AI is deficient here. It does not know when to stay off roads and in the woods and gullies. It does not know when not to fly over the top of a ridgeline. The limited number of waypoints currently coupled with realistic orders delay turns tactical maneuver into a quagmire at times.

And, I think it would be marvelous for one product to be able to be played as a game or used as a sim. As it sits right now, I would not have hesitated to use this game to run a CPX when I was a contract tactical trainer in Saudi in the 90's. So, please, don't think I am down on FPRS. I am an avid fan!


I'm on record as saying 3 is fine for my style of play but I can't argue with any of this; these are very good points!


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Mad Russian
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RE: Waypoints. How many do you really need?

Post by Mad Russian »

ORIGINAL: Magog

If it will affect balance, maybe the user can set the max waypoints for a given game?

It greatly affects the ability of the AI to do what you ask. Since the AI runs both sides of the conflict it's no small issue to make changes to how it works.

Good Hunting.

MR
The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.
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