Winning as the Axis

World in Flames is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. World In Flames is a highly detailed game covering the both Europe and Pacific Theaters of Operations during World War II. If you want grand strategy this game is for you.

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Numdydar
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Winning as the Axis

Post by Numdydar »

I have played quite a lot of SPI's (now Decision Games) War in Europe, both the computer (no AI in the computer game) and board game. The Axis can start out strong but are ultimately destined to lose. The idea in many of these games when playing the losing side is to do better than history. This is possible in WiE to avoid the capture of Berlin by May '45 but definitely no romp into Persia/India [:(]

As I never played the board game of WiF (which explains why the current state of the game does not bother me as I do not know any better [:D]), I was wondering, between equal skilled players, can the Axis actually 'win'? Or does it come down to the same theme as WiE, WitP, etc. in how long can I avoid losing?

After reading with great interest poor yvesp's AAR http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3644260 and the terrible luck the Axis have had, I wanted to see if anyone have actually played a game where the Axis actually won? And if they did somehow win was it just a matter of a lot of luck or good strategic planning (or both [:D] )

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warspite1
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RE: Winning as the Axis

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

I have played quite a lot of SPI's (now Decision Games) War in Europe, both the computer (no AI in the computer game) and board game. The Axis can start out strong but are ultimately destined to lose. The idea in many of these games when playing the losing side is to do better than history. This is possible in WiE to avoid the capture of Berlin by May '45 but definitely no romp into Persia/India [:(]

As I never played the board game of WiF (which explains why the current state of the game does not bother me as I do not know any better [:D]), I was wondering, between equal skilled players, can the Axis actually 'win'? Or does it come down to the same theme as WiE, WitP, etc. in how long can I avoid losing?

After reading with great interest poor yvesp's AAR http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3644260 and the terrible luck the Axis have had, I wanted to see if anyone have actually played a game where the Axis actually won? And if they did somehow win was it just a matter of a lot of luck or good strategic planning (or both [:D] )

warspite1

Numdydar WIF - and thus MWIF - is most definitely a game that is designed so that it may be won by either side. I have won many games as the Axis and many as the Allies. The reason some of the counter mix seems odd - counter values, numbers etc - is for game balance purposes to allow both sides the opportunity to win rather than any slavish devotion to historical accuracy.
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paulderynck
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RE: Winning as the Axis

Post by paulderynck »

Sure the Axis can win. If Russia gets completely conquered in an Oil game, that usually does the trick, because the Axis will be swimming in oil from the USSR and be able to lend lease to Japan. I recall one game where I had many German and Italian NAVs and some long range fighters stationed around Vladivostock to help the JPs against the US Carrier fleets.

Another formula is to make the Med an Axis lake and fight to a stalemate on the Eastern Front.

In the first case, the Allies might never win no matter how long the game lasts. In the second case, it will take more time than the game allows but if playing into 1947 or 1948, the Allies will come back and conquer the Axis.
Paul
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michaelbaldur
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RE: Winning as the Axis

Post by michaelbaldur »


a good play is to take UK, sack it (destroy all blue factories). and leave.

by doing that you permanently take CW out of the war. (there is only a few allied engineers to repair factories)


but most important, leave. don´t try to defend it.

soon there will be a big allied fleet in the north sea, and you will have a big POW island.

the wif rulebook is my bible

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michaelbaldur
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RE: Winning as the Axis

Post by michaelbaldur »

that is a general advice for the axis. destroy all blue factories you can reach

give the allies noting to capture.
the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com
Ur_Vile_WEdge
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RE: Winning as the Axis

Post by Ur_Vile_WEdge »

If Russia gets completely conquered even if you're not playing with Oil, the Axis are almost certain to win. The Eastern front represents such a buildup of troops and build points that if one of the two biggies really defeats the other, they'll have so many troops to tromp through everywhere they want, that they ought to win, based on just that buildup.
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WarHunter
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RE: Winning as the Axis

Post by WarHunter »

Using the Auto Victory conditions as a baseline. The Allies have a much greater chance of Victory. The chances for an Axis victory is slim.
So the Axis have to do the next best thing.

Break the will of the Allies to continue.
Thats how most Axis Victories will result.

The really stubborn allied player/players will take longer. In a game with multipule personalities. Divide and conqueor. Make one player feel useless. It can result in a surrender. Take the offered hand without a second thought. Congratulate your opponents on a game well played. Prepare for another round. Its a never ending circle this way.

In games where the axis player has done well. Just not that well. The transistion to defense is the key to victory. Make the allies pay for every inch. Go to the bunker with grace and style. Make plans for the next game.

Really its all a matter of what you consider victory. History can help you decide how good your game was. Discuss it with your opponent. Find out how he feels he did/you did.

IMHO In a game lasting months. The journey is the juice. Not the end result.
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Numdydar
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RE: Winning as the Axis

Post by Numdydar »

Thanks for the replies.

I always try and play to the bitter end. In my WiE games as the Axis, It was a real struggle to hold on as the Allies closed in on Berlin. Sometimes I made it, others not.

So other than people dropping out of the game or just deciding that the 'game is over so you win', have the games been played out to an actual 'win' for the Axis? And more importantly what made it happen? As I said in the OP, was it luck or skill? Or was luck more important?

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composer99
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RE: Winning as the Axis

Post by composer99 »

Skill is probably more important, of the two.

The more skillful you are, the better you can take advantage of luck such as extended fine weather (early in the game), good naval search rolls, and the like, and the better you can attenuate bad luck.

Because there are so many rolls, they usually wash out in the end (IMO).

However, a particularly unlucky distribution of rolls can influence the game quite strongly. For example, when US entry actions will result in chit draws is random, and what value drawn chits will have is also random (within certain constraints), so the US can find itself gearing up very late or very early, with a correspondingly large effect on the outcome of the game.

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micheljq
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RE: Winning as the Axis

Post by micheljq »

Lately in one of our games USSR was being hit very had in July-August 1941 and had to retreat east in the Urals. It lost all on European map except Leningrad and Caucasus, Turkey joined Axis. However it came back stong in 1944 and was the second Major Power in Victory points, after Japan. USSR did go as far as Poland, Rumania, Hungary, Yougoslavia.

Western Allies fought a long lasting aeronaval fight in the Mediterranean against Axis, in 1941-42-43. Italy was conquered in summer 1943.

Western Allies invaded France end of 1943 but stalled quickly, lots of bad rolls on attacks for Commonwealth. Paris was liberated only in the last turn of JA45.

Things can show bad for Allies early but you never know how things can turn later. No game is ever the same.

Germany can be a real tough nut to crack. Even when allies have a strong foothold in France, breaking the front is far from being easy and things often stall for Western Allies, even with land offensives.

In our games, Axis win a lot more often than Allies.

Michel.
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brian brian
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RE: Winning as the Axis

Post by brian brian »

Probably a main reason I am hooked on WWII grand strategy games was a game of Third Reich I played in high school a long time ago. After playing for an hour after school every day for a nice long period, it went down to the attack on Berlin on the historical 2nd turn of 1945. One final roll of the die decided the whole thing after all that gaming.

World in Flames can end like that as well. Skill is most important, and a willingness to play to the game system. I don't mean purposely gaming the rules with some odd strategy. I mean making tactical decisions about which unit is in which hex and which combat, based on how the rules work. Luck can be critical at a few points - the weather in Sep/Oct 41, for instance, when the Germans launch an historical Barbarossa. Some would say the Initiative on that turn is a matter of critical luck, but I would say the player's decisions before that point have a lot to do with that set of die rolls.

Also the US Entry system has a fair bit of critical luck. The set of USE chits was changed once about ten years ago to smooth the probabilities. MWiF changed it again and though 10,000 or 100,000 sample games will generate the same average result, there will be just slightly more games with extremes of USE luck. Though again here the player decisions generally have the most impact on how the system work. Treat decisions regarding US entry casually, and the game system can punish you quickly.

There is also the general skill of prioritizing, which is critical for both sides but perhaps a bit more for the Allies. Learning to play the Allies well is more difficult, as good Allied play in the game can go against natural instincts and downsides of human nature such as pride. Some players will never overcome that and generally have a tough time as the Allies against good Axis play. Part of that is the game Axis players can frequently play smarter than the real Axis did historically (and play to the game system some), though many Allies just presume they can follow historical priorities and the great mass of the USA will solve all their problems. Once good Allied play is learned, I think the game favors the Allies.

Despite all that, the game is frequently decided by a "morale check", to borrow a term from another famous cardboard wargame. Players might not see the implications of the US Entry system, that can see the Allies return to conquer the board even after the UK is conquered. Or full Deluxe Sitzkrieg games can just fizzle out in boredom once 2000+ pieces are on the board and hours of gaming see just a few hexes change hands.

Automatic Victory is rare for any side unless a game is moved back to a solitaire experience. Who wants to sit around be a punching bag for extra game sessions just to see an Automatic Victory happen? A concession is more likely before that.

Also the bidding system the game is designed to play with rather intimidates players, who rarely get to see the end of such a long, long game. But it is always worth remembering that the game is designed to generate a single winner from a group of ideally 5 players. The victory system is designed for that, not for 3 Allies to all play as best buddies fighting a war in perfect harmony.
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Orm
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RE: Winning as the Axis

Post by Orm »

It is almost impossible to get a automatic victory as the Axis side. Eleven cities are needed for this and capturing them all before US enters the war is close to impossible and after US is in the war then gaining all three of Pretoria, Canberra and Delhi seems very unlikely.

I find it funny that Pretoria is needed for a automatic victory but it is not included when counting for a final victory.


Cut from RAC: 13.8 Victory check
....
Automatic victory
However, during this step of each turn, check to see if you have won an automatic victory. Your side can win
an automatic victory if the major powers on your side control all of the following cities, depending on which scenario
you are playing:
Fascist Tide:
• Berlin,
• London,
• Moscow,
• Paris,
• Pretoria, and
• Rome.
Day of Infamy:
• Canberra,
• Chungking,
• Delhi,
• Taihoku, and
• Tokyo.
For all other scenarios (except Barbarossa and Guadalcanal), all 11 cities must be controlled by one side for
an automatic victory.
....
Final victory
There are 67 objective cities and ports on the map. They represent the major strategic, cultural and political
centers of the world. Objectives have their names printed in red on the map:
• Aden, Amsterdam, Antwerp, Athens,
• Baghdad, Batavia, Belgrade, Berlin, Birmingham, Bucharest, Budapest, Buenos Aires,
• Calcutta, Canberra, Cape Town, Chungking, Colombo,
• Dakar, Delhi, Diego Suarez, Dutch Harbor,
• Gibraltar,
• Helsinki, Honolulu,
• Istanbul,
• Jerusalem,
• Kiel, Kiev, Kwajalein,
• Lanchow, Leningrad, London, Los Angeles,
• Madrid, Manila, Marseilles, Mexico City, Milan, Munich, Moscow,
• Oslo, Ottawa,
• Pago Pago, Panama, Paris, Port Arthur, Prague,
• Rabaul, Riyadh, Rome,
• Saigon, Sao Paulo, Shanghai, Singapore, Stockholm, Suez, Sverdlovsk,
• Taihoku, Teheran, Tokyo, Truk,
• Vienna, Vancouver, Vladivostok,
• Warsaw, Washington and Wellington.
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Numdydar
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RE: Winning as the Axis

Post by Numdydar »

Most likely Pretoria is there it is so far south. Of course from a historical point of view, it makes no sense. I would have put Cairo there instead. I wonder if this can be modded?

Unfortunately the issue with games like this, always assume the US will enter the war. No influence on the 1940 election in the US which would have had a major impact on this decision, etc. No ability of having a very successful '40/'41 invasion of Russia where Germany could have traded oil to Japan with (or without a bitter peace with the Russians). If Japan knew they could get their needs met by their ally Germany, there would have been no need to attack south so no Pearl Harbor.

So while the US chits/Tension is a good mechanic to introduce some randomness into US entry, there is nothing the Axis can do to actually prevent the US from entering the war at all.

While we are on the topic of US entry, when is the latest that the US has entered the war?
Ur_Vile_WEdge
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RE: Winning as the Axis

Post by Ur_Vile_WEdge »

I've had a game where the U.S. didn't enter the war in Europe and only got to Japan in like late 42.
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Orm
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RE: Winning as the Axis

Post by Orm »

I think that Pretoria is included because it is the capital of South Africa which is an important dominion of the commonwealth.
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