July 28, 1914...

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GaryChildress
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July 28, 1914...

Post by GaryChildress »

PLEASE READ 3rd POST BELOW FOR "OFFICIAL" THREAD RULES... [:)]

Apparently there is some dispute as to exactly "when" the First World War started. However, it seems like a pretty good start date would be July 28, when Austria-Hungry officially declared war on Serbia and started the "Alliance" ball rolling.

Does anyone have any ideas how we all at Matrix might be able to commemorate this event? For example: I'm not sure if there's a particular time of day when the declaration of war was issued, if there were, maybe we could all watch for that time of day tomorrow and post our respects at that moment to all the young men, women, soldiers, officers and civilians from so many countries who died in an enormously huge and relatively pointless war.

Any ideas on a way all of us here on Matrix forums can maybe commemorate the event?

Also does anyone work at an office or someplace which will be commemorating the event? I'd love to hear what your office does tomorrow...

Thanks.
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RE: July 28, 1914...

Post by zakblood »

i'm retired and home alone so know i'll be playing or testing something war related on this and every day tbh
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RE: July 28, 1914...

Post by GaryChildress »

Sounds like a good plan.  [:)]

I was thinking since this is the centennial (usually an occasion of enormous distinction) of the "war to end all wars" and of course led directly to World War 2 (at least in Europe), it might be a good occasion for some to pay respects to all those who perished in the first half of the 20th century (violent century it was). May we never have another century like it...

OTOH, perhaps for some of us there is really nothing there to "honor" other than a lot of human craziness. Maybe we're all better off trying to put the 20th century behind us.

EDIT: OR perhaps some of us can "pay our respects" by not dwelling on the occasion...

So, to avoid getting into the dreaded topic of what is often called "politics", maybe in honor of all those who perished in the name of anger distrust and prejudice, we could all make this a thread to "get along" in. Avoid arguments and coexist while saying what we want about the First World War. I volunteer to moderate as much as possible and try to bring down any heated debates, including any I get involved in... LOL

Let's not dwell too much on who "won", who "lost" or who was "right" and who was "wrong".

Since I started the OP, rules of this thread are, say anything you want so long as it doesn't unreasonably denigrate anyone else or anyone else's country. Please respect the dignity of each poster in this thread.

100 years ago the 20th century was officially taken off course on a direction of anger, distrust and prejudice. Perhaps we can all take this occasion to remember to avert this in the 21st.

Amen...

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RE: July 28, 1914...

Post by Gilmer »

If it's during work, I won't be posting. I think back sometimes when I see movies or play a game and think about them "going over the top" in the face of machineguns, and I guess you could be shot for disobeying and not "going".

The fear must have been almost overwhelming.
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He that has a mind to fight, let him fight, for now is the time. - Anacreon
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RE: July 28, 1914...

Post by GaryChildress »

I'm with you H Gilmer! The choices were probably essentially either die or else die. I can't even begin to imagine. [X(]

I know the Vikings were very big on the whole thing about dying "as warriors" with their swords in hand etc. I suppose, when considering other ways of dying, that's not the worst way to go. Maybe it's better to go out in a relatively quick "blaze of glory" than sit around till old age waiting for the inevitable? But you're right, just the fear of charging to almost certain death must have put a lot of young men "over the top" mentally/"psychologically".

IIRC in the 1st battle of the Somme, didn't the British have their soldiers line up in neat rows and march into the machine guns thinking sheer numbers alone would overwhelm the enemy? I believe the casualties were astronomical. Later in the war soldiers were encouraged to run like a dickens in a not so "neat" fashion toward the enemy. That of course worked a bit better from what I understand from watching a show on the History Channel about it once.

Incredible...I'd like to call it "bravery", but in the final analysis, they had no choice...when they signed up for duty the newspapers were probably not relating much about what was going on at the front. So most probably had no idea the exact nature of what they were getting into. [X(]

Staggers the imagination...at least for me...
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RE: July 28, 1914...

Post by Gilmer »

I don't know much about all of that and individual battles. I only knew about the "going over the top" and the being shot for disobeying, well, I heard that recently, but that does not seem all that uncommon from what I've heard about any war.
"Venimus, vidimus, Deus vicit" John III Sobieski as he entered Vienna on 9/12/1683. "I came, I saw, God conquered."
He that has a mind to fight, let him fight, for now is the time. - Anacreon
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RE: July 28, 1914...

Post by GaryChildress »

ORIGINAL: H Gilmer

I don't know much about all of that and individual battles. I only knew about the "going over the top" and the being shot for disobeying, well, I heard that recently, but that does not seem all that uncommon from what I've heard about any war.

Most of my knowledge is of WW2. Obviously someone will probably correct me if I'm wrong but up until at least the American Civil War, I believe, wars were usually fought (at least in Europe) by "professional" soldiers. "Conscription" is a relatively new phenomenon (used in the ACW) and to some extent I believe "total war", where war drags over into civilian populations was relatively rare also. Although I've heard the 7 years war was a pretty brutal affair for civilians in Europe and introduced "pillaging" as a means of maintaining armies.

There is a story of GWF Hegel viewing the Battle of Jena from a hilltop while he was writing his book "Phenomenology of Spirit". The Battle was between Napoleon's army and the Prussians. He was watching all these soldiers in colorful uniforms marching in file around the battlefield (along with other civilians who would go out and "picnic" for a day to watch battles). At that time there weren't much in the way of trenches or "house to house" fighting in cities (unless you count the Paris Commune or something).

In modern society we have a somewhat unique phenomena of widespread "peace movements" or "anti-war movements" or whatever. I don't recall hearing at least as much about such sentiments until the advent of "conscription" and "total war". Again my history of warfare is not comprehensive and not extremely detailed but that's my experience "at a glance". I believe there are stories in the Bible and Koran which talk about virtual genocide of "enemies" and there were obviously times in the history of many peoples which involved fighting tooth and nail for survival but I do believe "conscription" is relatively new and "total war" has not always been a practice.

But, as you seem to allude to, "desertion" was probably usually a pretty big offense in just about every war.
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RE: July 28, 1914...

Post by wings7 »

Gary, First off I would like to say you are a tremendous writer! [&o] Your writing is so very descriptive and easy to understand (although I'm not a fan of acronyms [:@]). Do you type your messages or use speech recognition software?
My main question to you is can you list good, reliable sites for WWI, specifically for battles fought and their locations in WWI? Thanks!

Patrick
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RE: July 28, 1914...

Post by Capt. Harlock »

Two other possible dates: July 25th, when the German High Seas fleet was withdrawn from the North Sea. This effectively surrendered control of the North Sea to the British, which the Germans would not have done unless they knew that something very big was coming. In other words, this was when they committed to the Von Schlieffen plan.

Or July 29th, when the Austrian artillery opened a bombardment of Belgrade. I believe these were the first shots fired.
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RE: July 28, 1914...

Post by GaryChildress »

ORIGINAL: wings7

Gary, First off I would like to say you are a tremendous writer! [&o] Your writing is so very descriptive and easy to understand (although I'm not a fan of acronyms [:@]). Do you type your messages or use speech recognition software?
My main question to you is can you list good, reliable sites for WWI, specifically for battles fought and their locations in WWI? Thanks!

Patrick

Thank you very much, Wings7! I'm glad you enjoyed what I typed. [:)]

Most of my WW1 knowledge is pretty limited and has pretty much trickled in over the years from a few books here and there, occasional sources on the Web and TV as well as talking with other wargamers out there. I can't really recommend a specific website to cover everything, though I'm sure there are many WW1 aficionados here who can. I often find various game forums here at Matrix to be as informative as a set of encyclopedias.

My apologies about the acronyms. I don't know if these are the ones you were referring to but ACW is "American Civil War" and GWF Hegel would be "Georg Wilhelm Friedrich" because I can never remember the exact spelling of his first three names. I also use IIRC (If I recall/remember correctly) and OTOH (on the other hand) quite a bit. I actually get stuck on acronyms myself a lot, especially when people are referring to games I haven't heard of or played. So I should probably keep that in mind and try to use them a little less.

Anyway, thanks again! [:)]

@Capt. Harlock: I've also heard June 28 (the date Arch Duke Ferdinand was shot) used as a significant "start" date for WW1.
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RE: July 28, 1914...

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: wings7

Gary, First off I would like to say you are a tremendous writer! [&o] Your writing is so very descriptive and easy to understand (although I'm not a fan of acronyms [:@]). Do you type your messages or use speech recognition software?
My main question to you is can you list good, reliable sites for WWI, specifically for battles fought and their locations in WWI? Thanks!

Patrick

Thank you very much, Wings7! I'm glad you enjoyed what I typed. [:)]

Most of my WW1 knowledge is pretty limited and has pretty much trickled in over the years from a few books here and there, occasional sources on the Web and TV as well as talking with other wargamers out there. I can't really recommend a specific website to cover everything, though I'm sure there are many WW1 aficionados here who can. I often find various game forums here at Matrix to be as informative as a set of encyclopedias.

My apologies about the acronyms. I don't know if these are the ones you were referring to but ACW is "American Civil War" and GWF Hegel would be "Georg Wilhelm Friedrich" because I can never remember the exact spelling of his first three names. I also use IIRC (If I recall/remember correctly) and OTOH (on the other hand) quite a bit. I actually get stuck on acronyms myself a lot, especially when people are referring to games I haven't heard of or played. So I should probably keep that in mind and try to use them a little less.

Anyway, thanks again! [:)]

@Capt. Harlock: I've also heard June 28 (the date Arch Duke Ferdinand was shot) used as a significant "start" date for WW1.
warspite1

June 28th isn't the start date for WWI [&:]. The shooting was merely the catalyst for all that followed, but there was plenty of time, plenty of talking, plenty of diplomacy, for history to have taken a variety of different courses post the assassination of Franz Ferdinand and his wife. No way can June 28th be considered the start of the war surely?????

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RE: July 28, 1914...

Post by GaryChildress »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: wings7

Gary, First off I would like to say you are a tremendous writer! [&o] Your writing is so very descriptive and easy to understand (although I'm not a fan of acronyms [:@]). Do you type your messages or use speech recognition software?
My main question to you is can you list good, reliable sites for WWI, specifically for battles fought and their locations in WWI? Thanks!

Patrick

Thank you very much, Wings7! I'm glad you enjoyed what I typed. [:)]

Most of my WW1 knowledge is pretty limited and has pretty much trickled in over the years from a few books here and there, occasional sources on the Web and TV as well as talking with other wargamers out there. I can't really recommend a specific website to cover everything, though I'm sure there are many WW1 aficionados here who can. I often find various game forums here at Matrix to be as informative as a set of encyclopedias.

My apologies about the acronyms. I don't know if these are the ones you were referring to but ACW is "American Civil War" and GWF Hegel would be "Georg Wilhelm Friedrich" because I can never remember the exact spelling of his first three names. I also use IIRC (If I recall/remember correctly) and OTOH (on the other hand) quite a bit. I actually get stuck on acronyms myself a lot, especially when people are referring to games I haven't heard of or played. So I should probably keep that in mind and try to use them a little less.

Anyway, thanks again! [:)]

@Capt. Harlock: I've also heard June 28 (the date Arch Duke Ferdinand was shot) used as a significant "start" date for WW1.
warspite1

June 28th isn't the start date for WWI [&:]. The shooting was merely the catalyst for all that followed, but there was plenty of time, plenty of talking, plenty of diplomacy, for history to have taken a variety of different courses post the assassination of Franz Ferdinand and his wife. No way can June 28th be considered the start of the war surely?????


I wouldn't think of June 28 being the start date either. But before I started the thread I Googled a bit to find a start date for WW1 and some sites actually gave June 28. Not sure why.

BTW: What would be your pick for a start date?
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RE: July 28, 1914...

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: Gary Childress



Thank you very much, Wings7! I'm glad you enjoyed what I typed. [:)]

Most of my WW1 knowledge is pretty limited and has pretty much trickled in over the years from a few books here and there, occasional sources on the Web and TV as well as talking with other wargamers out there. I can't really recommend a specific website to cover everything, though I'm sure there are many WW1 aficionados here who can. I often find various game forums here at Matrix to be as informative as a set of encyclopedias.

My apologies about the acronyms. I don't know if these are the ones you were referring to but ACW is "American Civil War" and GWF Hegel would be "Georg Wilhelm Friedrich" because I can never remember the exact spelling of his first three names. I also use IIRC (If I recall/remember correctly) and OTOH (on the other hand) quite a bit. I actually get stuck on acronyms myself a lot, especially when people are referring to games I haven't heard of or played. So I should probably keep that in mind and try to use them a little less.

Anyway, thanks again! [:)]

@Capt. Harlock: I've also heard June 28 (the date Arch Duke Ferdinand was shot) used as a significant "start" date for WW1.
warspite1

June 28th isn't the start date for WWI [&:]. The shooting was merely the catalyst for all that followed, but there was plenty of time, plenty of talking, plenty of diplomacy, for history to have taken a variety of different courses post the assassination of Franz Ferdinand and his wife. No way can June 28th be considered the start of the war surely?????


I wouldn't think of June 28 being the start date either. But before I started the thread I Googled a bit to find a start date for WW1 and some sites actually gave June 28. Not sure why.

BTW: What would be your pick for a start date?
warspite1

Being an old traditionalist I guess I'll stick with 4th August 1914 [;)]
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: July 28, 1914...

Post by Alchenar »

I guess some people take an idiotically pedantic view of the phrase 'first shot fired', rather than a more common sensical 'when did armies start crossing borders?
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RE: July 28, 1914...

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

I guess some people take an idiotically pedantic view of the phrase 'first shot fired', rather than a more common sensical 'when did armies start crossing borders?
warspite1

Well I guess that is part of the debate. I've always understood WWII started on 3rd September 1939, but on the basis of "armies crossing borders" you could argue 1st September 1939. I think the former, traditional date makes sense because the 1st September saw the start of a local war Poland vs Germany - and this was turned into a wider conflagration on the 3rd. So similarly this works for WWI. July 28th was a local Austria vs Serbia war and this turned global on the 4th by which time all the major European powers were involved.

Back to WWII there are those who get worked up over the true date being 7th July 1937 or even that there wasn't a First and Second World War - just one war that started in 1914 (whatever date people agree on!! [;)]) and lasted until August 1945...[>:]

Personally I think Rafe McCauley said it best on the 7th December 1941.

"I think WWII just started" [8|][:D]



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RE: July 28, 1914...

Post by GaryChildress »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

I guess some people take an idiotically pedantic view of the phrase 'first shot fired', rather than a more common sensical 'when did armies start crossing borders?
warspite1

Well I guess that is part of the debate. I've always understood WWII started on 3rd September 1939, but on the basis of "armies crossing borders" you could argue 1st September 1939. I think the former, traditional date makes sense because the 1st September saw the start of a local war Poland vs Germany - and this was turned into a wider conflagration on the 3rd. So similarly this works for WWI. July 28th was a local Austria vs Serbia war and this turned global on the 4th by which time all the major European powers were involved.

Back to WWII there are those who get worked up over the true date being 7th July 1937 or even that there wasn't a First and Second World War - just one war that started in 1914 (whatever date people agree on!! [;)]) and lasted until August 1945...[>:]

Personally I think Rafe McCauley said it best on the 7th December 1941.

"I think WWII just started" [8|][:D]



Image

The movie that shall not be named (according to the By Laws of the WITP/AE forum) has been invoked! [:D]

Formal declarations of war, which was apparently first done on July 28, seems like as good a date as any to me. First shots fired or borders first crossed are good dates too. In the end, suffice to say, there was a "world" war. Part I was maybe from 1914 to 1918. There was an intermission between 1918 to 1937 for civilians to "head to the snack machines to get popcorn" for the second act. Suddenly the actors on the stage jumped into the audience and starting shooting at each other between the aisle seats. Panic started and the audience started to flee the theater. Some went off to found a nation called Israel. Maybe part III will erupt in the Middle East. Who knows but hopefully not.

There are obviously different ways of interpreting events. Until God issues the 11th commandment saying, "Thou shalt consider July 28 the start of WWI", it seems we are pretty much stuck with what our historians say, unless of course we disagree. History is a relatively fluid and articulated process from what I've experienced. I would like to think that there is some degree of "free will" among nations, though, and that things could have turned out differently had more rational people prevailed in at least some of those nations.

I read a couple days ago that Arch Duke Ferdinand was not particularly liked by a great many people in Austria-Hungary either. But apparently his assassination was enough to mobilize enough people to do enough damage. Image
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RE: July 28, 1914...

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

I guess some people take an idiotically pedantic view of the phrase 'first shot fired', rather than a more common sensical 'when did armies start crossing borders?
warspite1

Well I guess that is part of the debate. I've always understood WWII started on 3rd September 1939, but on the basis of "armies crossing borders" you could argue 1st September 1939. I think the former, traditional date makes sense because the 1st September saw the start of a local war Poland vs Germany - and this was turned into a wider conflagration on the 3rd. So similarly this works for WWI. July 28th was a local Austria vs Serbia war and this turned global on the 4th by which time all the major European powers were involved.

Back to WWII there are those who get worked up over the true date being 7th July 1937 or even that there wasn't a First and Second World War - just one war that started in 1914 (whatever date people agree on!! [;)]) and lasted until August 1945...[>:]

Personally I think Rafe McCauley said it best on the 7th December 1941.

"I think WWII just started" [8|][:D]



Image

The movie that shall not be named (according to the By Laws of the WITP/AE forum) has been invoked! [:D]

Formal declarations of war, which was apparently first done on July 28, seems like as good a date as any to me. First shots fired or borders first crossed are good dates too. In the end, suffice to say, there was a "world" war. Part I was maybe from 1914 to 1918. There was an intermission between 1918 to 1937 for civilians to "head to the snack machines to get popcorn" for the second act. Suddenly the actors on the stage jumped into the audience and starting shooting at each other between the aisle seats. Panic started and the audience started to flee the theater. Some went off to found a nation called Israel. Maybe part III will erupt in the Middle East. Who knows but hopefully not.

There are obviously different ways of interpreting events. Until God issues the 11th commandment saying, "Thou shalt consider July 28 the start of WWI", it seems we are pretty much stuck with what our historians say, unless of course we disagree. History is a relatively fluid and articulated process from what I've experienced. I would like to think that there is some degree of "free will" among nations, though, and that things could have turned out differently had more rational people prevailed in at least some of those nations.

I read a couple days ago that Arch Duke Ferdinand was not particularly liked by a great many people in Austria-Hungary either. But apparently his assassination was enough to mobilize enough people to do enough damage. Image
warspite1

I don't think that is surprising. Whether he was universally loved by his people (or his uncle for that matter) or not, did not alter the fact that he represented Austria (he was the heir to the throne) and a bunch of Bosnian Serbs (apparently with the connivance of the Serbian state) had him and his wife assassinated. You can't blame the Austrians for being a smidgen put out by said murder.
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RE: July 28, 1914...

Post by GaryChildress »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

Well I guess that is part of the debate. I've always understood WWII started on 3rd September 1939, but on the basis of "armies crossing borders" you could argue 1st September 1939. I think the former, traditional date makes sense because the 1st September saw the start of a local war Poland vs Germany - and this was turned into a wider conflagration on the 3rd. So similarly this works for WWI. July 28th was a local Austria vs Serbia war and this turned global on the 4th by which time all the major European powers were involved.

Back to WWII there are those who get worked up over the true date being 7th July 1937 or even that there wasn't a First and Second World War - just one war that started in 1914 (whatever date people agree on!! [;)]) and lasted until August 1945...[>:]

Personally I think Rafe McCauley said it best on the 7th December 1941.

"I think WWII just started" [8|][:D]



Image

The movie that shall not be named (according to the By Laws of the WITP/AE forum) has been invoked! [:D]

Formal declarations of war, which was apparently first done on July 28, seems like as good a date as any to me. First shots fired or borders first crossed are good dates too. In the end, suffice to say, there was a "world" war. Part I was maybe from 1914 to 1918. There was an intermission between 1918 to 1937 for civilians to "head to the snack machines to get popcorn" for the second act. Suddenly the actors on the stage jumped into the audience and starting shooting at each other between the aisle seats. Panic started and the audience started to flee the theater. Some went off to found a nation called Israel. Maybe part III will erupt in the Middle East. Who knows but hopefully not.

There are obviously different ways of interpreting events. Until God issues the 11th commandment saying, "Thou shalt consider July 28 the start of WWI", it seems we are pretty much stuck with what our historians say, unless of course we disagree. History is a relatively fluid and articulated process from what I've experienced. I would like to think that there is some degree of "free will" among nations, though, and that things could have turned out differently had more rational people prevailed in at least some of those nations.

I read a couple days ago that Arch Duke Ferdinand was not particularly liked by a great many people in Austria-Hungary either. But apparently his assassination was enough to mobilize enough people to do enough damage. Image
warspite1

I don't think that is surprising. Whether he was universally loved by his people (or his uncle for that matter) or not, did not alter the fact that he represented Austria (he was the heir to the throne) and a bunch of Bosnian Serbs (apparently with the connivance of the Serbian state) had him and his wife assassinated. You can't blame the Austrians for being a smidgen put out by said murder.

I suppose maybe I "can't" blame Austrians for being a "smidgen" put out. However, was it worth starting a war over (which apparently even turned into a world wide one)? Was it worth attacking Serbia over something that was (at least allegedly) done by non-official actors? That would be closer to the point I was trying to make. Of course wars have been started by many other countries for even less serious things I'm sure. I suppose with "free will" would need to be some sort of awareness of proportion. And of course that would also mean that citizens might need to (at least occasionally) see views of events from perspectives other than those of "Huns eat babies" (or whatever equivalent might have been circulating in Austria-Hungary by July 28, 1914).

I certainly wouldn't "blame" Austria-Hungary for the whole thing. As you say, Germany apparently did their part, and maybe other nations did their part. Definitely a messy world out there. Some things I can certainly "sympathize" with. Maybe others are more difficult to. I learn as I go. That's been my experience so far anyway.
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RE: July 28, 1914...

Post by Alchenar »

Well in 1914 Austria-Hungary was an empire on the verge of splintering due to nationalism (even if you know literally nothing of the history, the name should give you a hint). A quick war to crush Serbian nationalism would work well to quash internal dissent and reinforce the wavering perception of the strength of the Austro-Hungarian state. Of course a quick war requires you to actually mobilise quickly and conclude the war before international actors notice what's happening and can react to it, which Austria-Hungary wasn't capable to doing.

So the Austro-Hungarian state actors who were willing to start a foreign war (which would be all-but genocidal for the Serbian people) just to prop up the perception of the strength of their own state bear a substantial amount of the blame for the war. But it was the actors in the German High Command who fully appreciated that this would bring on a greater European war and pressed ahead gambling that they would win that war who bear the majority of the blame.
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RE: July 28, 1914...

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

Well in 1914 Austria-Hungary was an empire on the verge of splintering due to nationalism (even if you know literally nothing of the history, the name should give you a hint). A quick war to crush Serbian nationalism would work well to quash internal dissent and reinforce the wavering perception of the strength of the Austro-Hungarian state. Of course a quick war requires you to actually mobilise quickly and conclude the war before international actors notice what's happening and can react to it, which Austria-Hungary wasn't capable to doing.

So the Austro-Hungarian state actors who were willing to start a foreign war (which would be all-but genocidal for the Serbian people) just to prop up the perception of the strength of their own state bear a substantial amount of the blame for the war. But it was the actors in the German High Command who fully appreciated that this would bring on a greater European war and pressed ahead gambling that they would win that war who bear the majority of the blame.
warspite1

Yup
Now Maitland, now's your time!

Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
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