Return of the Sheep! - JocMeister(A) vs. MrKane(J)

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Not if the goal is strategic delay rather than "victory."

It's the two or three hexes deep along an entire line thing that I think is wrong and a wasted allocation of forces. Really, it's the concept of a line as an enormous defensive unit. My first/only attempt at installing SLs wasn't successful, but I intend to rectify this and if I can figure out how to set up a test game... I can quickly demonstrate, with the units available to both sides, exactly what I'm talking about.

That, or prove myself wrong.

Delay is all I'm after.

I finally see what you're up against here, but it seems you're basing this all on an assumption that a 'line' means two or three deep all along it's length. It certainly doesn't to me. Not sure why we're even having this discussion as I think we're advocating the exact same thing. You can look in my AAR and see good examples of this in the recent map I posted. Won't go farther into that here though. [:)]

This all started as I was trying to figure out exactly what Alfred's objections are to the defense in this game, not mine. I'm still interested in those specifics.

What is the correct concept if an MLR isn't it? Is MLR such a clearly defined term that it has to mean deep defense all along the line? I'm not a military historian so I may just be using a more specific term for a more vague concept myself. What is a better concept for Jocke in this game? Or for anyone playing the Allies in China?

The only interpretation that I could come up with for Alfred's remarks was that a mobile defence is the most effective way to stymie the Japanese.
This worked well for Canoerebel (or was it Cap Mandrake and Sprior?) when he was defending China and had secure LOC on the rail line from Changsha to the south and west.
IIRC there were no stacking limits in that game.
If the Chinese do not have the rail lines they cannot outmaneuver or outpace the Japanese except in +3 terrain. Stacking limits complicate their movement and concentration further.
I don't know if Alfred has tried out stacking limits but he's very good at strategic thinking and analysis so he must have some workable idea in mind.
Perhaps a full scale Chinese offensive into a weak sector of the Japanese lines with the goal to take key ports?

[Encircled]

Can't see that working. The only key ports are Shanghai and Port Arthur. If the Chinese get close to them then you've probably got other way more important things to worry about.

You can threaten Hong Kong/Canton fairly easily, but then the flanks are weak as hell.

Must be something to do with defending the road/rail junctions with large reserves, which is close to impossible against a determined attack.

[JeffroK]

Take Alfred's comments as advice, not gospel.
Not every game proceeds the same way and what might be a better defence tactic in one case could fail against a different attack strategy in another.

One thought, and I am in no way suggesting it as a world beater, is to play as if its Napoleonics, who needs a defensive line BUT this was before SL.

I'm playing using SL now as the evil empire, not entirely happy about some decisions they made, but am trying moving 2-3 stacks and merging them when I reach the objective then spreading out after. (I think Mr Buonaparte tried this first)

Dont get too cocky, any thoughts about a major offensive should be kept for later.

[catwhoorg]

Page 2 save *whistles*

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

1.  The Allied player is panicking.

2.  The MLR is a flawed concept used by Allied players in China.  Against a competent Japanese player who energetically prosecutes their offensive, it will always fail.

3.  The roadblocks were, and still are, not placed in the correct positions.

4.  The two recent Japanese successes at 85,39 and 86,41 are not important.

5.  Sian should be held with the strongest units, not with the weakest.

6.  A strategic reserve can still be created out of the many units occupying useless dirt in the countryside.

7.  Handled properly, Ankang is not the fatal dagger which it is being presented as.

Alfred 

I started writing you a long reply but I realized it will just be a waste of time. I will just say this instead: You are wrong on all accounts but you have some merit on point 2 and 3.

[JocMeister]

Had to return home two days early. The heatwave that hit Sweden was getting too much to handle for Alexander so we headed home early. Was pretty nice to spend the heat of the day in comfortable AC in the car during the 5 hour drive!

Sent Tom a mail I was back. Hope we can get a couple of turn in before he starts his vacation. [:)]

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Well, the mlr as Joc drew it will guarantee that the entire southern line is cut off from supply and and basically out of the game for a long time as it tries to move south.

I think defense in depth along the road, avenues of approach, make him fight each hex of the way dug in troops. And try to get some units threatening his line of supply. Trashed Chinese units head back, fresh ones perhaps forward, but make him fight heavily on the roads.

Defending Sian...tough, but I think the effort needs to be made if for no other reason than to slow the Japanese down. Tienshuie, north along the railway, can be built to a level 1 airbase allowing you to use fighters in Sian for CAP traps until the rail line is cut.

It is hard to keep the IJA supplied in this area. I would be looking to make the IJA eat as much supplies as possible.

Supply is pretty much already gone in most places. Every unit outside Chungking and Changha are already in the red. So whatever I do supply will be gone. I don´t have the troops to put up any real MLR. Its will just be a "imaginative" line where I hope to get troops in time in case he goes that way.

I would love to defend or hold on to Sian. But its simply not possible. I´m losing about 1000-1500 troops each turn due to the IJAAF. Anything left at Sian will be bombed from the air until supply is gone and disruption has risen and then it will be destroyed. Even if I threw everything I have at Sian I could not hope to hold on longer then 15-25 days. And after that I would have nothing more to throw at him.

I have basically been doing what you describe. Hold at defensible terrain on roads. Problem is that he wears me down slowly but surely. He can rotate troops in and out while I can´t (due to lack of troops). And on the road towards Ankang where I actually had troops he turned his air force on any units trying to move back. As soon as they started moving I lost 15-30 squads per turn to bombings.

I need to decide pretty soon what to do with 2600 AV that arrived. Basically this will be what I have to fight with. Due to retreats and bombardments all the roadsblocks are pretty much shot at this stage.

I can´t put the 2600 at Sian. Its a clear hex, its easily surrounded and he will just use his AF to grind them down in a couple of weeks. When/if I lose them its a clear way all the way to Chungking (where only 400 AV is defending). I should add here that I have already started pulling more troops from the Changsha sector towards Chungking.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

Page 2 save *whistles*

Much appreciated [:D]!

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Supply is pretty much already gone in most places. Every unit outside Chungking and Changha are already in the red.

Why is it so bad? The burma road is open, right?

Did you shut off all factory, resource, manpower repairs?

Did you limit very exclusively reinforcements? Are you stockpiling artillery pieces?

Did you ground most of your air force?

Are you building only very selective forts?

Are you resting all rear echelon troops?

I have to admit that I haven't had that problem like you have, but I have only played against AndyMac's nasty nasty Japanese and not another person, especially of the caliber of Mr. Kane. And I have no experience with this mod either, so I am probably all wet.[:D]

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Supply is pretty much already gone in most places. Every unit outside Chungking and Changha are already in the red.

Why is it so bad? The burma road is open, right?

Did you shut off all factory, resource, manpower repairs?

Did you limit very exclusively reinforcements? Are you stockpiling artillery pieces?

Did you ground most of your air force?

Are you building only very selective forts?

Are you resting all rear echelon troops?

I have to admit that I haven't had that problem like you have, but I have only played against AndyMac's nasty nasty Japanese and not another person, especially of the caliber of Mr. Kane. And I have no experience with this mod either, so I am probably all wet.[:D]

Yes on all points. [:)] I think the problem is the relentless attacks both from the ground and air. Tom is doing probably 1 Deliberate attack and 3-5 bombardment attacks each turn. Then add the supply burn from the aerial bombings every turn. I also lost some supply when I suffered retreats in unwanted directions that caused overstack.

Tom is surely burning insane amounts of supply to achieve all this and if he fails the AV he may be in trouble in 44 and onward. But he is not bombing Chinese industry so I can only assume he hopes that it will cover some of the losses once they are in Japanese hands.

I also did a quick summery of raw Japanese AV and Chinese. Right now he has only 300 less AV then what I have around Sian. 3600 Japanese AV vs 3900. [X(]

[Lowpe]

Tough. It will be interesting to watch. Between your game and Obverts two wildly different China strategies.

I suspect there really isn't much you can do ultimately against a motivated Japan that wants China other than slow him down and perhaps take opportunities elsewhere as the opportunity presents.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Tough. It will be interesting to watch. Between your game and Obverts two wildly different China strategies.

I suspect there really isn't much you can do ultimately against a motivated Japan that wants China other than slow him down and perhaps take opportunities elsewhere as the opportunity presents.

That is my feeling too. In most PBEMs we see today China gets steamrolled by the Japs pretty fast. While the allied player obviously can effect the outcome some, in the end I think it comes down to Japanese commitment.

This is from last turn. Against this there is nothing you can do.

Ground combat at 85,39 (near Sian)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 36979 troops, 266 guns, 733 vehicles, Assault Value = 1330

Defending force 22936 troops, 147 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 535

Japanese adjusted assault: 924

Allied adjusted defense: 195

Japanese assault odds: 4 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
670 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 70 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Guns lost 5 (1 destroyed, 4 disabled)
Vehicles lost 16 [8|] (1 destroyed, 15 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
10342 casualties reported
Squads: 379 destroyed, 207 disabled
Non Combat: 383 destroyed, 47 disabled
Engineers: 14 destroyed, 10 disabled
Guns lost 45 (32 destroyed, 13 disabled)
Units retreated 4

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
17th Division
15th Tank Regiment
9th Tank Regiment
3rd Tank Regiment
8th Armored Car Co
5th Tank Regiment
10th Tank Regiment
6th Ind.Mixed Brigade
5th Armored Car Co
12th Tank Regiment
23rd Tank Regiment
15th Division
11th Tank Regiment

Defending units:
42nd Chinese Corps
8th Route Army
47th Chinese Corps
84th Chinese Corps

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
This is from last turn. Against this there is nothing you can do.

Have another drink?[X(]

[EHansen]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
This is from last turn. Against this there is nothing you can do.

Have another drink?[X(]

[JocMeister]

I´ll drink to that! [:D]

[Lokasenna]

"Insane amounts of supply" is relative. Japan can afford to spend (say) 5,000 per day in China because it's literally right next door, and the VP gains justify the expenditure because of what it does to the Chinese. 5,000 supply per day for the Chinese, on the other hand, is an enormous usage.

[Cribtop]

It does seem that China is indefensible from the Allied perspective, at least with traditional tactics. The hope was that stacking limits would solve the problem but apparently not. I wonder what a mod that provided more auto supply would do to alter the situation. Might be an interesting test.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

"Insane amounts of supply" is relative. Japan can afford to spend (say) 5,000 per day in China because it's literally right next door, and the VP gains justify the expenditure because of what it does to the Chinese. 5,000 supply per day for the Chinese, on the other hand, is an enormous usage.

Yeah, 5000 is an insane number for the Chinese. [:(]

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

It does seem that China is indefensible from the Allied perspective, at least with traditional tactics. The hope was that stacking limits would solve the problem but apparently not. I wonder what a mod that provided more auto supply would do to alter the situation. Might be an interesting test.

In my (very limited) experience with SL I think it might actually hurt the Chinese more then it helps!

[JocMeister]

PS. Sorry for not answering PMs or updating the AAR lately. Still trying to catch up with life after being on the road for 2 weeks! Should be back on track tomorrow (I hope)!