AI Improvement Mod (1.05 Extended Release)

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ParagonExile
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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release)

Post by ParagonExile »

ORIGINAL: Icemania

Beyond what is mentioned above, I'm struggling to come up with much to change for the Beta release.

I'm running a long game now to test the buffed Shakturi and the AI use of Death Rays and Super Lasers.

Let me know please.

Should I even bother with a Beta release?

Yes.

A beta release for Extended.
sayke
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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release)

Post by sayke »

ORIGINAL: Tcby

What do people think of the new racial biases? I like the idea of them being higher values, but I'm not totally keen on the bloc format. I'm concerned it may make galactic politics too predictable...

Of course, the AI mod cannot implement this degree of complexity because the vanilla race pool is too low. What I'm more interested in is starting a discussion about what people like/dislike about current biases (high values that also somewhat ignore previous racial family bonuses), so that by the time this mod is being adapted to DWE, that process will be less complex...

I think it's quite possible given the vanilla race pool. All you have to do is set up alliance and hostility loops, so that A and B like each other a lot, and X and Y like each other a lot as well, but A likes X which hates B, and B likes Y which hates A... Right? Doesn't vanilla do this to some extent already?

And Icemania, if it works on Very Expensive research, I would suggest that you don't need a beta phase!
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Tcby
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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release)

Post by Tcby »

You are right about loops. What I was referring to was the simple fact that DWE has more loops, because there are more races to loop between, and more racial families.
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Icemania
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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release)

Post by Icemania »

ORIGINAL: sayke
And Icemania, if it works on Very Expensive research, I would suggest that you don't need a beta phase!
To get the game going on Expensive Research and above on a Prewarp start all I really need to do is apply the default Civilian Ships and put out two versions. I still hope for developer support as the default Civilian Ship designs are pretty poor and it helps the AI with resource shortages.
Elhazad
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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release)

Post by Elhazad »

Man im getting my ass kicked even in very hard now... Its fun as hell :D

I have not found anything to report that hasnt been said or that cant be fixed by you rather than the devs, so maybe no beta and work on extended version ;) lol.
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Icemania
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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release)

Post by Icemania »

I did a test game aimed at checking out the Return of the Shakturi. Unfortunately the game did NOT apply the massively upgraded Shakturi Ship and Base Design Templates that I've put in the AI Improvement Mod. If anything they are now at a relative disadvantage to the other races that will often have larger ships and most Wonders should be built.

The game was on Very Cheap research so I could get to this scenario quickly. Frankly, the Shakturi got hammered by normal empires.

I had also upgraded the Ancient Guardians the idea being to provide the most epic battles possible in the game. These upgrades worked but obviously create imbalance without similar upgrades to the Shakturi.

I don't know if this is hard coded or whether they force the default templates for the Shakturi to be used but I'll PM Erik and Elliot and report in Tech Support.
ORIGINAL: Elhazad
Man im getting my ass kicked even in very hard now... Its fun as hell :D
Glad to hear it!

Hopefully I can get the real Shakturi into the Mod!

Rather than the Lameturi ...
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squiddy286
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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release)

Post by squiddy286 »

Hi, Icemania. Great mod you have made! I want to give some feedback considering pirate behavoiur, I noticed some differences with vanilla DWU.
1) Sometimes pirates come to destroy/raid my mining stations, Im getting the messege (mining station under attack), but instead of actually attacking it, they just hang around a little and fly away. Maybe this has something to do with my mining stations designs, they have big firepower (for example - 20 velocity shards in early mid game) and big defences.

2) Pirates wont even try to raid my colonies (even those with no troops), they just try to destroy space port and fly around trying to increase their influence at colony. That sounds like one way of doing things, but since I installed your mod and played few games, I did not have a single raid on my colonies.

One more thing: when I change tech emphasis (type of weapon for example) in the empire policy screen, ship design automations will still try to use default racial emphases even though ones I select are way higher tier available, and if I dont have any racial emphasis tech available (fighters for the securan for example) auto ship design wont use weapons I researched, designs simply wont have any weapons.

Maybe there are some game limitations, or lack of modding features, but I thought I should give feedback.

Anyway, thanks for great mod and have a nice day!
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Icemania
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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release)

Post by Icemania »

ORIGINAL: squiddy286

Hi, Icemania. Great mod you have made! I want to give some feedback considering pirate behavoiur, I noticed some differences with vanilla DWU.
1) Sometimes pirates come to destroy/raid my mining stations, Im getting the messege (mining station under attack), but instead of actually attacking it, they just hang around a little and fly away. Maybe this has something to do with my mining stations designs, they have big firepower (for example - 20 velocity shards in early mid game) and big defences.

2) Pirates wont even try to raid my colonies (even those with no troops), they just try to destroy space port and fly around trying to increase their influence at colony. That sounds like one way of doing things, but since I installed your mod and played few games, I did not have a single raid on my colonies.

One more thing: when I change tech emphasis (type of weapon for example) in the empire policy screen, ship design automations will still try to use default racial emphases even though ones I select are way higher tier available, and if I dont have any racial emphasis tech available (fighters for the securan for example) auto ship design wont use weapons I researched, designs simply wont have any weapons.

Maybe there are some game limitations, or lack of modding features, but I thought I should give feedback.

Anyway, thanks for great mod and have a nice day!
Thanks squiddy, it's appreciated! As the AI can't handle Pirates well at all ... most of my test games I've turned them off. What I've tried to do is improve the Pirate Ship and Base Designs to make them a bit tougher. However, I've missed Assault Pods, and will have that fixed for release.

One of the few things I've changed in the Pirate Policy files is ResearchDesignTech Focus. There is only one race file (that applies to both the Empire and Pirates), so the AI Pirates will apply the Research Order in that race file. I've then set-up the Pirate Ship and Base Designs to align with that. I had also tried to align ResearchDesignTechFocus but maybe that is not needed. Could you go into the Pirate Policy file for the race you are playing and try setting each ResearchDesignTechFocus to 0 and let me know how you go?
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Icemania
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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release)

Post by Icemania »

Okay squiddy I've got the Pirate design templates all updated to fix any missing Assault Pods.

I've also got a second version of the mod ready to go now with default Civilian Ships (to function correctly with Expensive Research and above on Pre-Warp starts as there is no conditional logic in the Templates).

Will focus on this item more now ...
ORIGINAL: squiddy286
One more thing: when I change tech emphasis (type of weapon for example) in the empire policy screen, ship design automations will still try to use default racial emphases even though ones I select are way higher tier available, and if I dont have any racial emphasis tech available (fighters for the securan for example) auto ship design wont use weapons I researched, designs simply wont have any weapons.


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Icemania
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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release)

Post by Icemania »

1. I tested with Vanilla Quameno Pirates where the design templates typically have a mix of Beams and Torpedoes.
(a) I went to Empire Policy and set a Techfocus on Missiles. Then I went to Game Editor and researched all the way up to Plasma Torpedoes. The designs had Plasma Torpedoes.
(b) I kept the Empire Policy Techfocus on Missiles, then went to Game Editor and removed Torpedo research back to Epilson Torpedoes, but researched Assault Missiles. The designs had Assault Missiles.
(c) Then I went to the Empire Policy and set a Techfocus on Torpedoes. I kept the research focused on Assault Missiles. The designs had Assault Missiles.
(d) Obviously the final permutation (Torpedo Policy and Research) had Torpedo Designs.
As you alluded, the game appears to have this idea of applying the highest tier within similar weapons types i.e. it will change around Missiles and Torpedoes but not replace the Beams on those designs with Torpedoes.

2. I then tested with Securan Pirates using the AI Improvement Mod where templates are focused on Torpedoes. The reason for this is that AI Pirates don't really do much research, so I felt templates with a Torpedo/Fighter focus (like the Securan Empires) would put them at a disadvantage. If you leave research automated, you'll notice they use the research order appropriate to the Securan Empire. As Darkspire mentioned earlier in the thread, there is nothing I can do about that, as there is a common race file and hence common research order that applies to both the Empire and Pirates. On Automatic research, whatever you set in Techfocus is ignored, the research order in the race files takes priority. If you research Missiles manually, automatic ship design will change those Torpedoes to Missiles. But if you then research Beams manually, well there are no Beams in the Securan AI Improvement Mod templates, so that won't work.

3. With Securan Empires, the larger Ship and Base templates focus heavily on Fighter Bays (and the smaller designs uses Torpedoes as research is needed for Torpedo Bombers anyway and it's more effective early game). If you then chose to focus on Missiles, the game doesn't replace Fighter Bays with Missiles etc.

In short, even in Vanilla the Automated Ship Designer only adapts a little if you choose to go in a direction which is different to the Templates. I can see that because I've focused on particular weapons types, rather than a smorgasboard, these differences become more obvious in some cases. But the benefit to the AI in staying focused is massive, so the pro's massively outweigh the cons.

So the best advice is to either (a) stay aligned with the Design Templates or (b) if you want to chose a completely different weapon do it manually. Anything in between will depend on the circumstances as described above. The file "AI Improvement Mod.xls" has a Summary table so you know what each race uses, or check the templates.

In the Mod I have Quameno using Gravitics but I often play with Quameno and Torpedoes. It's not in the AI Improvement Mod, but in my "Personal Mod" I've set-up my own custom Research Order in the Quameno Race File which emulates what I do in game, so I can pretty much leave Research on Automatic now, despite being a micro player. I've then copied the Kiadian AI Improvement Design Templates over to Quameno (as they use Torpedoes). So the Ship and Base Designer then does pretty much what I want on Automatic as well.

I also have Osito's Galactic Starmap in my Personal Mod which appears to work fine (it switches theme, but works okay anyway, but you'll need to switch theme again after the game).

Hope this helps.
zartek
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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release)

Post by zartek »

Hi Icemania, love the mod. Got to the stage where I wouldn't play without it!

Was just wondering what settings you would recommend for the most challenging playthrough? From reading through the thread you seem to advocate very hard and normal research speeds at the very least.
Sithuk
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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release)

Post by Sithuk »

Has anyone tested the impact of modifying the passenger transport ship capacity to improve distribution from high pop worlds to low pop worlds? The stronger AI empires tend to have more worlds than the human player so the result of better population distribution to higher growth rate worlds could see a net benefit to the AI?
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Icemania
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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release)

Post by Icemania »

ORIGINAL: zartek
Was just wondering what settings you would recommend for the most challenging playthrough? From reading through the thread you seem to advocate very hard and normal research speeds at the very least.
The topic of a challenging game goes back to my first posts in the forum about a year ago with Shadows. The game has definitely improved since then but the closest you will get to a challenge as an experienced player is setting other empires to be ahead on Extreme Difficulty with the AI Improvement Mod.

It's more important to have fun. The settings on my Extreme Difficulty AAR are what I consider a fan game to be. Although I normally ignore the diplomacy system as there are many ways to abuse the AI.

The AI does not handle Pirates well in the early pre-warp game so will more careful with that in future games.
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Icemania
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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release)

Post by Icemania »

ORIGINAL: Sithuk
Has anyone tested the impact of modifying the passenger transport ship capacity to improve distribution from high pop worlds to low pop worlds? The stronger AI empires tend to have more worlds than the human player so the result of better population distribution to higher growth rate worlds could see a net benefit to the AI?
I would be very interesting in the findings if anyone does this testing and reports past results. The Passenger Ships in the AI Improvement Mod are designed to be faster than default, but do not carry more passengers ... at this stage.

It would be complicated by the templates which use a fix number of components. Add too many and they will build even later on a Pre-Warp Start.
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lurchi
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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release)

Post by lurchi »

ORIGINAL: Icemania
ORIGINAL: Sithuk
Has anyone tested the impact of modifying the passenger transport ship capacity to improve distribution from high pop worlds to low pop worlds? The stronger AI empires tend to have more worlds than the human player so the result of better population distribution to higher growth rate worlds could see a net benefit to the AI?
I would be very interesting in the findings if anyone does this testing and reports past results. The Passenger Ships in the AI Improvement Mod are designed to be faster than default, but do not carry more passengers ... at this stage.

It would be complicated by the templates which use a fix number of components. Add too many and they will build even later on a Pre-Warp Start.

Test results sure would be interesting. In Research Reloaded the passenger capacity is going to be lower at the beginning and higher in late game compared to vanilla, so the number of ship components should not be a problem.
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Icemania
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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release)

Post by Icemania »

ORIGINAL: Tcby
The observations I described on the previous page with Haree's banoserit are the extent of my trials. I'm changing the vanilla governments now to see what happens in a game using your mod.

I'm not sure which governments it would be appropriate for, so I'm going to start by applying it to way of ancients, way of darkness, and technocracy. The idea is that they are all very powerful, and should either limit the player by forcing them to be careful about upholding their reputation, or cause an AI to be at a higher risk of attack. Both are good imo, albiet for different reasons.

Of course you are welcome to the changes if they turn out to be worthwhile.
Any results here Tcby?

I've just finished testing the variation of the Mod to include default civilian ships (for those who don't want civilian ship delays on an Expensive or above Research Pre-Warp Starts) and the Pirate changes so pretty much ready for release.

Hopefully Erik and Elliot release 1.9.5.6 Beta 2 officially shortly so will also check for anything interesting then. I'm not sure which items in the Developer Support Wishlist in the OP that they will action in coming patches.
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lurchi
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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release)

Post by lurchi »

Did you consider boosting the initial size 160 a bit for the time being?
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Icemania
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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release)

Post by Icemania »

Interesting thought. I might. What do others think about that? I would have to change it to Size 230 which nullifies Space Construction Research entirely. A better option maybe to significantly reduce the research cost of Space Construction.

I'd rather Civilian Ship shrinkage be included in the game to resolve the problem at the source. I mean AI designs for Size 160 ... LOL ... C'mon! Even Size 230 I find tough to swallow.

Efaferal
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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release)

Post by Efaferal »

Icemania,

I am not sure if this suggestion has been made, but I would recommend that aggressive races be given smaller TroopTransport templates so they start invading earlier. The current AI doesn't want to down size a transport to 300 for me. The result is that if I see I am next to a bug race I quickly design small transports then grab their near worlds in order to cut off expansion. The source shortages are a pain, but the population gain is winning in the long term. Not sure if the AI is smart enough to have a controlled expansion though.

-R
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lurchi
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RE: AI Improvement Mod (Alpha Release)

Post by lurchi »

ORIGINAL: Icemania

Interesting thought. I might. What do others think about that? I would have to change it to Size 230 which nullifies Space Construction Research entirely. A better option maybe to significantly reduce the research cost of Space Construction.

I'd rather Civilian Ship shrinkage be included in the game to resolve the problem at the source. I mean AI designs for Size 160 ... LOL ... C'mon! Even Size 230 I find tough to swallow.

Proper shrinkage sure will be way better, but until it's implemented you could use a kludge. A bigger starting size is a quick and dirty solution, it's easy to do and just as easy to remove.
Space Construction Research isn't nullified, BTW, it still increases construction speed. Well, you have to research it anyway, unless you're happy with size 230 dwarf ships. [:D]
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