Speaker's Corner Summer 2014 - An on-line survey

[BletchleyGeek]

Dear all,

now that we've wrapped up Command Ops v1 development - touching wood here! - we would like to touch base with you via an anonymous on-line survey, that you can access from the link below

http://www.panthergames.com/2014/07/spe ... 9CQJfmSzss

We'd appreciate very much that you guys spend some time going through it, as having some "hard data" about how you feel and what you expect will be most important for us to adjust our development priorities.

Cheers!

[kipanderson]

My comments at the end of the survey...

Hi,
My biggest problem with Commands Ops is that often I “admire more than enjoy command Ops...” . I admire it more than I get involved in the scenario I am playing.
I reason is that being able to give orders to entire divisions and then having the AI do a reasonable job makes me feel redundant.
I would like the option to play the game at the same scale as traditional operational games. So when you select a scenario before you start it you have such an option you can choose.
What I mean by this is that for the side being played by the human you would not be able to give orders to groups of units bigger than reinforced battalions. So you would not be able to give orders to a single group consisting of more than say two battalions with attached artillery fighting as a combined arms team. So you the player would have to give orders manually to all your units very much in the same way as in a traditional operational level wargame. But using your stunning RT engine to resolve the game.
All the best,
Kip.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: kipanderson

My comments at the end of the survey...

Hi Kip, thanks for going through the survey.

I wonder why you posted your comments here, was the form giving you some trouble?

[Phoenix100]

Will head over there and do survey, but I couldn't disagree more with Kip's comments/suggestions in here. You have to play the game at Bn level to get the best out of it, giving most orders at Bn level. If you give Divisional orders then the result will usually be painfully slow and clumsy. In most scenarios, with multiple objectives, it wouldn't be possible anyway to command from the very highest levels only. One of the wonders of having that functionality is that you can make a plan, give your key orders at the most effective level (usually Bn), organise the support how you want it, then give a single mop up defend order, for example, to the on-map-boss, instead of having to go round clicking manually on all the units left over. That the AI can do things like this is superb, THE key feature of this game and what separates it from everything else out there, because still nothing else has any AI (especially friendly AI) worth speaking of in the way this game does. If you want to click on every counter then you can, or you needn't - the choice is yours. Can't see why any development time would need to be put into a button restricting this optimal situation. It's an odd request, Kip (forgive me for suggesting that) as you can already do what you want simply by exercising your will.

[kipanderson]

BG, hi,

No, I had no problems with the survey.

I just posted my comments here in addition to in the survey because in my experience people sometimes like to discuss or even just know what others think of an issue.

All is great stuff,
All the best,
Kip.

[kipanderson]

Phoenix, hi,

I realised many would disagree with me .

I am a fan. I try all the games that have any potential.. but only Combat Mission, Command Ops, Scourge of War and now Flashpoint Campaigns make the grade. Both Combat Mission and Command Ops are extraordinary games in terms of their quality... we really are lucky to have them.

Returning to the issue.. Phoenix you are clearly a very experienced player and are indeed expert at Command Ops. But until you have put a lot of time in I bet most average, more occasional users don’t do noticeable better than the friendly AI .

I would like to be forced to concentrate harder, check more things and do more... it would be more immersive. For me.. .

All the best,
Kip.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: kipanderson

I just posted my comments here in addition to in the survey because in my experience people sometimes like to discuss or even just know what others think of an issue.

Fair enough [:)]

[Phoenix100]

Hey Kip. I don't think I'm anything like an expert, but this is the game I've played most. I keep trying Combat Mission too (hardly any friendly AI, very frustrating to have to do just about EVERYTHING for every unit - I crave that they would just find the best cover, for example, to fire from, after I've told them roughly where to go, or hit the ground immediately they come under fire...), and am now starting off with Flashpoint Campaigns (there's a decent AI there too, though not the detailed AI of Command Ops)and I wish SOW was to scale, instead of one third smaller than real life (for some reason that really puts me off)....though it's true SOW has a decent AI too, though, again, imho, not anything like the AI that CO has. But it can get very dull just playing one game all the time, so those games would be on my list too.

Actually (to agree with you, sort of), I think it might be a little better to bill Command Ops as a Bn or even Regimental level simulator, so people don't get the impression that the game is about giving a couple of very high level commands and sitting back to enjoy (or get bored with)the results. It's true that you can move forces over distances and into fighting positions by commanding at regimental level or higher (though even this results in much slower and hitch-prone movement than if you were to give the orders at Bn level)but attack orders given at these higher levels, imho, definitely don't work as well as if you were to command at Bn level. Sometimes don't work at all. Maybe if it were flagged up more that to get the best from it the game actually requires you to command and shepherd quite a lot of units (as many as a small to medium Combat Mission scenario, easily)then that might address the point you make.

Peter

[Phoenix100]

The pimped-up Panther site looks great, by the way. I wish I hadn't bought the game already, because the new site certainly makes me want to buy....

A propos of my comment above - the Hofen write-up on the new site does make it seem that you could have fun playing Hofen Ho-Down (and get a Decisive Vic) as Allies, by giving only 4 orders.....no doubt the RIGHT 4 orders, but, all the same, you wouldn't get away with that either playing Hofen as Axis (as it's meant to be played, I believe) or playing as Allies against a competent human. It's good to stress what the AI can do, of course - it differentiates this game - but maybe another little piece showing how a certain degree of micromanagement (though let's not call it that) really pays off would balance things out for those who might - as Kip suggests - get bored issuing only 4 orders. Any of Daz's AARs would do it, or even a page from one of them. No?

[wodin]

Filled in and posted on TW.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: phoenix

The pimped-up Panther site looks great, by the way. I wish I hadn't bought the game already, because the new site certainly makes me want to buy....

The site was the result of johndoesecond's HTML/Javascript Fu. He'll be pleased to read this.

ORIGINAL: phoenix
A propos of my comment above - the Hofen write-up on the new site does make it seem that you could have fun playing Hofen Ho-Down (and get a Decisive Vic) as Allies, by giving only 4 orders.....no doubt the RIGHT 4 orders, but, all the same, you wouldn't get away with that either playing Hofen as Axis (as it's meant to be played, I believe) or playing as Allies against a competent human. It's good to stress what the AI can do, of course - it differentiates this game - but maybe another little piece showing how a certain degree of micromanagement (though let's not call it that) really pays off would balance things out for those who might - as Kip suggests - get bored issuing only 4 orders. Any of Daz's AARs would do it, or even a page from one of them. No?

Well it is indeed an easy scenario for the Allies against the AI

We don't have an editorial line, yet I would indeed like to have on the site more AAR's offering different approaches to Command Ops. You know that I am not someone who will tell you that this game can be run on autopilot or that it was entirely designed to support that kind of gameplay. The idea is to get rid of as many "menial jobs" typically found in most operational wargames out there as we can.

Daz's excellent visual stuff can be hard to fit into the design of the site, I would love to hear any ideas from him on that. In any case we're just starting with the site I hope there will be much more stuff there to read in the coming months.

Let me repeat again the call for materials we did a few weeks ago, there were a few answers, and I need to double check we got back in touch with them.

[dazkaz15]

I am like kipanderson, I would rather comment on the forum so others can see it, and discuss my views.
I do like the multiple choice options of the survey though, and hope the results help with your decisions.

You don't have to give orders to formations bigger than Bn size kip.
In fact in my opinion its far better and enjoyable not to.
I often give individual orders to units at the center of gravity of my battles.
I also give individual orders to ensure units are in the best defensive positions before grouping them together with a defend in situ order.
You do of course need to be mindful of the command load, as giving to may orders will increase the time the orders take to be actioned.
I don't think this is a bad thing, as it gives the AI more of a chance against the human player, and makes it more of a challenge.
In my opinion the command load concept is a great idea, and quite unique as far as I know. You can of course switch of the command delay in the options, or set it to a different difficulty setting if you prefer.

My battles last a very long time, and I feel very involved in the decision making.
I know exactly what you mean by not wanting to order at Divisional level. I think if I was able to win a scenario by giving just a few orders a game, I would feel a bit cheated.

I agree with Peter that maybe the wording in the sales pitch probably needs looking at, to emphasize that although the game is capable of large formation moves, and attacks, at this scale, it is primarily a Bn scale game, that can be micromanaged at Coy, and occasionally Platoon size for those that wish to.

Ill chat about my AAR later as I have a BBQ to light, and paddling pool to fill up for the kids [:)]

[wodin]

I actually prefer a survey. That way you can get your wants across without being shot down etc etc. I have no really need for others to see my ideas and requests apart from the developer. Sorry if I sound anti social. It's just that I get fed up when people request a feature (an optional one at that) then a load of people jump in and say NO I don't want that. Even though they are asking for an option. Makes me mad:) One reason I love working on Tigers Unleashed with Scott, Jeff and John is that I can discuss new ideas etc with Scott without getting shouted down. As long as the developer hears what I have to say I'm happy. On a forum your post can also get lost in a long thread. I bet for instance the old ideas thread hasn't been looked at in a long time and I'm sure many posts prob haven't been read or have been missed.

For me it's a much better way to find out what people want.

[DerGrenadier]

ORIGINAL: phoenix

A propos of my comment above - the Hofen write-up on the new site does make it seem that you could have fun playing Hofen Ho-Down

Maybe Iam too dumb but i dont see a write-up on the new Panther site.[&:]

[Phoenix100]

DerGrenadier, you click the 'News' button and it's down there somewhere.

[kipanderson]

Dazkaz15, hi,

I don’t in any sense wish to dump-down Command Ops.

I am a huge fan of the fact that Cos has the feeling of “running knee deep in mud...” . That command overload, exhaustion and lots of other factors mean you struggle to get things to happen as you wish them to happen.

That is what operations are all about.

I think Dave did too good a job with his tutorial videos of selling the friendly AI . Maybe a detailed example of how human intervention can improve the outcome in individual battles would help.

All the best,
Kip.
PS. BTW... don’t knock micro-management . CM for example is all about micro-management/tactical precision. Many people, in fact most even if not on this forum, love it.

[gabeeg]

Kip, I am not sure how long or how much you play CO so this might not be relevant but I am going to throw it out there. I felt like you did when I started playing. Even more I was even more critical thinking I was watching a game and not playing it. I came from a board game background and all the operational games I had played on the PC to this point were very management intensive. But after about the 6-7th scenario it started to draw me in, I dug into the manual more and after about a dozen scenarios I was hooked and changed my expectations and the way I played. Now it is by far my favorite operational game. I still enjoy my more micro-managed games but love CO.

[snoopy1710]

While I don't have CO1 (dabbled with the demo a while ago), I'm looking forward to v2.

My only feedback for v2 is, please consider OS X as a platform (I didn't take the survey since I can't comment on most questions).

Snoopy

[budd]

I'm not sure i understand, can't you give orders at whatever level you want? What about a game option to turn off command load so you could merrily order as many units as you want without penalty. I usually work at BN level with finer control for attacks/defense/delays. It's nice to not have to order every unit especially when having to travel a ways.It almost sounds like you want to "have" to give orders to every unit.

[kipanderson]

Gabeeg, hi,

Yup..that is how I look at it.. you have clearly taken a path I should find the time to follow.. .

But.... I bet that out there, amongst the great majority not keen enough to become involved in forum posts, even given that this is a niche game, have been impressed by COs but a little bored due to the lack of a need to manoeuvre and order more units.

All the best,
Kip.