2 questions about naval combat

Mayhemizer_slith · Post by **Mayhemizer_slith** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:53 pm

1) Italy is in war with CW but not with France. Germany is in war with CW and France.

Italy has ships in box 4.
Germany has flying boat in box 2.
CW has no convoy in sea are, but France has 2 CP.

Italy rolls 5 and manages to found enemy. Is that correct?

2) CW tries to find Italian ships with 2 subs. Both has combat value 3.
CW fails to find but Italy finds with 1 ship.

CW result for Italy is only (1) A. With 6 surface points vs 1 ship it is (1) D. Does subs have lower combat value in surface?

composer99 · Post by **composer99** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:33 pm

1) No, unless there are also CW ships in the same sea area.

The rules on multiple states of war state:

During port strikes and naval combats, a unit can’t fight against units from the other side unless it is at war with at least one of them (being at war with an enemy unit the naval unit is transporting is not enough). However, you resolve, as one combat, a combat that includes units that are not at war with each other, so long as each unit included is at war with at least 1 enemy unit in the combat.
Example: A combat includes a Commonwealth and a US naval unit against a Japanese and a German unit. The US is at war with Japan and the Commonwealth is at war with Germany. You fight this as one combat even though US units can’t fight Germans and Japanese units can’t fight Commonwealth. The Japanese unit is sunk. In the next round, the US unit isn’t included because it can’t fight German units.

2) Submarines' combat factors are full value in submarine combats and are halved in surface combats.

Courtenay · Post by **Courtenay** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:33 pm

Actually, subs subtract one combat factor, each, in surface naval combat, not halved:

During surface naval combat each included Sub’s attack factor is reduced by 1.

composer99 · Post by **composer99** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:34 pm

Oops, my bad, thank you for the correction.

Mayhemizer_slith · Post by **Mayhemizer_slith** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:48 am

Thank you both very much.

And yes, there were CW ships in the sea area so everything was correct.

Joseignacio · Post by **Joseignacio** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:43 am

ORIGINAL: composer99

1) No, unless there are also CW ships in the same sea area.

The rules on multiple states of war state:
During port strikes and naval combats, a unit can’t fight against units from the other side unless it is at war with at least one of them (being at war with an enemy unit the naval unit is transporting is not enough). However, you resolve, as one combat, a combat that includes units that are not at war with each other, so long as each unit included is at war with at least 1 enemy unit in the combat.
Example: A combat includes a Commonwealth and a US naval unit against a Japanese and a German unit. The US is at war with Japan and the Commonwealth is at war with Germany. You fight this as one combat even though US units can’t fight Germans and Japanese units can’t fight Commonwealth. The Japanese unit is sunk. In the next round, the US unit isn’t included because it can’t fight German units.

2) Submarines' combat factors are full value in submarine combats and are halved in surface combats.

Forgive me if I am asking a stupidity, for Multiples States of War is one of my weaker knowledge and most hated rules...

As for your answer to 1)... shouldn't it be "No, unless there are also CW ships in the same sea box"?

composer99 · Post by **composer99** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:18 am

I'm pretty certain that if there were no CW units in the sea area, the Italians couldn't participate at all.

CW units means the Italian naval air could participate in the combat.

My knowledge of multiple states of war isn't good enough to recall whether the Italians could pick the 0 box if it only had French cp. But they could at least search and find.

Joseignacio · Post by **Joseignacio** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:30 am

I would say that, since Italy is not at war with France, for Italy it's like these convoys simply aren't there (in this case), since Italy cannot attack the french under any circumstance. So IT is out of the search in the example he mentioned.

So, IMO Italy cannot search and cannot find, the Axis can search and could find, but Italy cannot hit the french so a 5 wouldn't allow any battle since the Germans are the only ones who can fight there.

So it's clear that the answer to Mayhemizer 1) is no.

You are right about the CW needing to be there for a search to be possible. Somehow I was thinking that having a CW ship in the 0 bow could give the IT player the possibility to attack the 0 box, but again the French would not be there for this purpose for the IT.

composer99 · Post by **composer99** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:53 am

Mayhemizer has already clarified that there were CW units in the sea area, but did not say there were none in the 0 box.

Can you clarify, Mayhemizer?

Joseignacio · Post by **Joseignacio** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:58 am

He doesn't really say, but anyway, if there are, there is the matter of whether the convoy gives a +1. The MSW rules are just %&$&%#@#!!!!

paulderynck · Post by **paulderynck** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:57 pm

The rule is: "Subtract 1 from your search roll for every 10 enemy convoy points (or part) in the sea area." So in MSW if units from Italy, France, the CW and Germany are all in the same sea zone, all included units will fight providing at least one of the included units is at war with at least one of the enemy included units.

In the example in Post 1, if the search roll is 4 or less, then all will fight. The Italian SCS should not get the benefit of the minus 1 for enemy CPs but the German Nav does (and being a Nav is considered to be in the 3 box, so a 4 finds after the subtract 1 for enemy CPs). I would say from the description here that this is a bug. In MSW, the search roll is applied to each power separately per box and "tested" to see if those units find and thus become included.

I agree that if there are no CW units in the sea zone, Italy should not be able to initiate a search.

Mayhemizer_slith · Post by **Mayhemizer_slith** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:01 pm

ORIGINAL: composer99

Mayhemizer has already clarified that there were CW units in the sea area, but did not say there were none in the 0 box.

Can you clarify, Mayhemizer?

Sorry the late answer.

CW had fleet in box 3 and no CP.
France had 2 CP and fleet in box 2.

Italy had ships in box 4.
Germany had flying boat in box 2.

Mayhemizer_slith · Post by **Mayhemizer_slith** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:21 pm

Another question related to this...

When flying boat returns from sea, it is disorganized even if it was organized before returning from sea. Correct?

I returned with Italian flying boat and it was organized. We were thinking it must be a bug...

Courtenay · Post by **Courtenay** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:14 pm

ORIGINAL: Mayhemizer

Another question related to this...

When flying boat returns from sea, it is disorganized even if it was organized before returning from sea. Correct?

I returned with Italian flying boat and it was organized. We were thinking it must be a bug...

Known bug.

Joseignacio · Post by **Joseignacio** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:12 am

ORIGINAL: Mayhemizer

ORIGINAL: composer99

Mayhemizer has already clarified that there were CW units in the sea area, but did not say there were none in the 0 box.

Can you clarify, Mayhemizer?

Sorry the late answer.

CW had fleet in box 3 and no CP.
France had 2 CP and fleet in box 2.

Italy had ships in box 4.
Germany had flying boat in box 2.

So, in case you didn't follow through it all. No, with a 5 you can't find with anyone. A 4 instead would allow all of them to find the enemy.

2 questions about naval combat

2 questions about naval combat

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