KV-1 and IS-1 production after June 1942

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caliJP
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KV-1 and IS-1 production after June 1942

Post by caliJP »

From digging into the production system and weapons usage, it seems:

KV-1s are not used in any unit after June 1942, as 42b Tank Brigade and Tank Corps obsolete them. Except for mechanized corps and Tank SUs.
IS-1s are not used in any units, period.
IS-2s are not used in any units until Jan 1945.

So it seems to me as soviet player, if I am not planning to build Mechanized Corps or Tank SUs for a while, I should just continuously move the KV/IS factories around starting around June 1942 so they don't have a chance to build tanks and use up armament points.

Am I missing something?


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loki100
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RE: KV-1 and IS-1 production after June 1942

Post by loki100 »

They are used in the heavy tank regiments that you can build from October 1942 onwards.

This reflects a shift of Soviet doctrine, in effect, they adopted their variant of the anglo-allied model where the medium tank (in their case the T34) was the default AFV and heavy tanks were in a more specialist role. One problem in the period up to late 1942 was that doctrinally there was no real distinction between the KV1 and the T34.

With the shift to specialist formations, these were then assigned to particular sectors as breakthrough weapons, especially once the IS2 became available. The IS1 was produced in very limited numbers for a short period as they found it had too weak a gun for its roles.

In effect, the IS2 (along with the heavier tank destroyers and SP guns) had a very large gun to allow it to blow things up. Suitable things included Tigers etc but also dug in fortifications or for city fighting where the gun and armour gave it a degree of protection. Its no accident that in the famous image of the morning after the Reichstag fell, all the tanks in the surrounding streets are IS2s.
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morvael
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RE: KV-1 and IS-1 production after June 1942

Post by morvael »

Build heavy tank regiments. I also realized this late, when over 500 IS were waiting in the pool.
caliJP
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RE: KV-1 and IS-1 production after June 1942

Post by caliJP »

Loki & Morvael thanx.

Yeah I am in April 1943 and somewhat low on trucks 114K (136K) so I was holding off a bit because it takes 124 trucks just to field 21 KV-1s via a Heavy Tank Regiment. But maybe I should build a few. When do you guys typically start building Heavy Tank Regiments?

Do you know if the IS-1s get used at all? Looking through all the TOEs I could not find them in any TOE? Although I guess they upgrade to IS-2s almost immediately.

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loki100
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RE: KV-1 and IS-1 production after June 1942

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: caliJP

Loki & Morvael thanx.

Yeah I am in April 1943 and somewhat low on trucks 114K (136K) so I was holding off a bit because it takes 124 trucks just to field 21 KV-1s via a Heavy Tank Regiment. But maybe I should build a few. When do you guys typically start building Heavy Tank Regiments?

Do you know if the IS-1s get used at all? Looking through all the TOEs I could not find them in any TOE? Although I guess they upgrade to IS-2s almost immediately.


One problem at the moment is the IS1 is a bottleneck to the upgrade path. So any KV1/42s you build will tend not to upgrade as the game models the historically low production of IS1s (I think only 200 or so were built). I'd suspect this is one of the many niggles that morvael will sort for 1.08.

So at the moment, I'd hold back on the heavy tank units till the IS2 enters production, as you'll probably end up scrapping the KV based formations later in the war - but they are good for the period late 42/early 43 so I'd judge on need and your specific situation.

You'll really appreciate the IS-2s though. They really make a difference in both a breakthrough role (ie attached to infantry corps) or to boost the effectiveness of the tank corps.

Historically the Soviets moved them around quite a lot to the main combat sectors but in game this would become a real drain on APs.
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RE: KV-1 and IS-1 production after June 1942

Post by Denniss »

I have to investigate in the soviet heavy tank production a little. I could make the KV-1S upgrade to IS-2 m43 while the factory stays on the IS-1 upgrade path. All surviving IS-1 were rebuilt to IS-2 m43 standard anyway in early 44.
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morvael
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RE: KV-1 and IS-1 production after June 1942

Post by morvael »

So perhaps IS-2 M1943 should import from IS-1?

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loki100
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RE: KV-1 and IS-1 production after June 1942

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: morvael

So perhaps IS-2 M1943 should import from IS-1?


I'd suggest you need a mix but Denniss' suggestion is good. Even if you have all the KV factories out you need, IS-1 production is exceptionally low.

I've just had a look at a T73 (ie May 42) save from an AI game and I have a capacity of 22 for the KV1s/42 - I think this is as good as it gets as I extracted over 50% from Leningrad fairly early on. The IS 1 is effectively produced in Nov 43 (the KV ends in Oct and the IS2/43 starts in Dec.) So the best you'll ever have is 22 of them (which sounds right, having checked a decent source it sounds as if only 40 were actually delivered to front line units).

So most of the KVs have no route to upgrade on the current rules.

In a lot of searching, including on Russian websites, I've only ever come up with a single image of an IS-1 in combat. I realise this is not scientific but it is indicative that they were rare.

If it were a purely a decision over game simulation, my suggestion would be to actually delete the IS-1 part of the chain. If this isn't feasible (either technically or it goes beyond your brief), I'd suggest allow the KV series to upgrade to IS-1 or IS-2. That way, its feasible that at least one heavy tank brigade might draw on the IS-1 pool, but most will end with the IS-2s.
caliJP
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RE: KV-1 and IS-1 production after June 1942

Post by caliJP »

Thanx Morvael and Loki, quite helpful.
So I am a bit in a pickle, I'd like to have some Heavy Tank Regiments for the summer 1943, but it looks like I may have to disband them and create new ones once the IS2s show up? I think it's OK AP-wise as by then I won't need them as much, but I will lose the experience/moral of those units.

It does seem like this should be fixed, and I think what you guys proposed makes sense.

Thanx again!
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morvael
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RE: KV-1 and IS-1 production after June 1942

Post by morvael »

Don't worry, build them. I built 6 in '42 and they used KV-1s until IS-2 were available in large numbers, then they switched to IS-2.
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RE: KV-1 and IS-1 production after June 1942

Post by Denniss »

Sources are conflicting regarding combat use of IS-1, some claim no combat at all (either used for training or new turret with 122mm gun to get them to IS-2 standard) while others claim a short combat use then withdrawn for training/IS-2 conversion.
So the best solution would be a separate factory for them, just like KV-85, + conversion to IS-2 with a cost of 30-50 armmament points.
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caliJP
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RE: KV-1 and IS-1 production after June 1942

Post by caliJP »

Morvael OK cool. Thanx!
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morvael
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RE: KV-1 and IS-1 production after June 1942

Post by morvael »

Just observe your pools. If you see some growing and there are no or not enough units using them, try to build some. That's why I built just 6 heavy tank regiments for my mech corps in '42, and in early '44 I realized that I have tons of IS-2 in the pool (about 500), while T-34 production dropped from 320 to 250 (because of the /85 model) I disbanded a lot of separate tank regiments, but built more heavy tank regiments. The same happened with medium SUs, I built too much and the units were understrength, so I disbanded all that were attached to tank corps. Monitor and react.
caliJP
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RE: KV-1 and IS-1 production after June 1942

Post by caliJP »

Thanx Morvael, good advice. Being in early 1943 I was focusing my APs on building Rifle Corps, but I should probably use a few to build some SUs to beef up some units.
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